I don't even know where to start?

[Eagle-1]

Hello everyone!

I know ahead of time that when I pose this problem, I'm several years late to the bandwagon here, but I would really like some of you to help me start this.

First, the problem is with my 1996 Pontiac Grand Prix GTP with a 3.4 liter V-6 I bought new in 1995 and she's been a great little car. The wife and I actually gave it to our son last year for his college transportation. She's got 140,353.12 on her right now....Practically every option available that year, so I've always tried to keep her up. Has ALWAYS turned over about half a turn and started RIGHT up, growling like a lion. I would say purring like a kitten, but it sounds a little throatier than that.

Well, after all these years of not having to open the hood except for normal maintenance, the actuator spring inside the timing belt actuator snapped the holding tang off inside the actuator, loosened the belt and it jumped time about 3 months ago.....just before the end of the school year. I know I should have changed the belt long ago, but I did frequently inspect my belt and it ALWAYS looked great. It actually looks good enough even now to put right back on the car, I swear, I'm not lying and could even show y'all, but since it had to come apart, all new stuff went back....of course. I started tearing into it about 4 weeks ago. The only reason I didn't finish the belt replacement and timing job 3 weeks ago, was IT NOW TAKES ABOUT 3 WEEKS to get parts for these engines anymore. I don't know if y'all have tried lately, but it took NAPA over 2 weeks and GM themselves don't even stock many of these parts anymore. I neeeded to replace one of the rings/collets that hold the cam sprocket and IT ain't here yet. I'm having to replace one of those because the rear cam sprocket bolt right next to the firewall......naturally.....rounded off and NOTHING I tried would get it. A grinder did. I scarred the surface of that ring a little working in just the 1 1/2" space back there and wanted to go ahead and replace that. The old one, I'm sure, is still fine, but I didn't know it would be that hard to get when I ordered it. It's on there right now and she's running perfectly fine, but I put the old ring on the second cam from the front and can get to it very easily when the ring gets here.

.......and I apologise for giving a little too much background here.

ANYWAY, night before last I fired her back up for the first time in a little over three months and she's back to her old self.....running wise. Everything installed, everything put back together, wires re-tied and everything completely cleaned. Looked very close to new under the hood again.

Today, it needed a new inspection sticker, so I backed her out and noticed a tennis ball sized oil spot. Ok, went ahead and drove it to the shop for the sticker. Smoke was whisking out by the passenger window (from underneath, of course) when I got to the inspection place, but MAYBE she's still burning off some of the major work drippings......I thought. Shop was a 8 miles from the house. 8 miles later, back at the house now, I've still got a little BIGGER whisp of smoke and I hear the old familiar sound of the power steering pump. Sure enough, fluid is low now (I topped all that off when I finished) and now there's a steady drip every 3 or 4 seconds under the car.....so I'm practically certain I fiddled TOO MUCH with those power steering lines while I was doing the timing, so whatever has happened here is my fault.......

BUT.....

How in the WORLD do I even get a peek at EITHER line in this thing???? I can't see down through the top and I can't see anything looking up from the bottom? I don't know which line it even is or where they go once they make that 90 degree bend at the firewall and disappear. I can't locate them from the top or bottom to check what I need to do and THEN, what do I do if I just want to go ahead and replace both lines because I can't even find them.

Have any of you good folks changed these power steering lines on a 1996 GTP before? What do I need to do to inspect them even???

Guys, I appreciate any tips here. All the money I saved on the timing job, I'm afraid is gonna go to some shop to replace these lines now.

Thanks for reading such a long post too,
Rob. (Eagle-1)

[Eagle-1]

Ok, just an update here. I see there isn't much help on this particular fiasco huh?

Well, I think I simply didn't crawl far enough under the car the first inspection. After I did a little reseasrch and learned that that tubing curled around on the front of the subframe is my power steering cooler, I followed those back and found the steering box. About 1 1/2 hours later, I was able to figure out how to trace and verify both the high pressure and return lines and even (sorta) seen them go to the 90 they make just in front of the engine and then to the pump.

I really had no clue which line it could be....and I still don't for sure.....but I HAVE removed the high pressure line. First, Itried everything I had to get the flare nut loose. Not no way, not no how for me, so I gave up and went another direction. Now, from this point on, everything is by feel. There is absolutely NO way to see any of thiis crap and I proceeded under the assumption that it was the high pressure line. I eventually got the high pressure line out of that clip holding the line IN FRONT of the steering box, pull on it as hard as I could till I got it back to the OTHER side of the steering box and crossmember and had about 4 inches of it finally exposed. Then, I cut it just above the gear box with my sawzall. Disconnected the line from the pump and started trying to remove it from the top. Thank goodness, it WAS the high pressure line that I had cut. Now, I've still got to remove the last foot or so and the flare nut. Having NO success with the nut earlier, I went ahead and bent the leftover line up and down in the three inches of clearance until it finally broke off ABOUT TWO AND A HALF INCHES from the nut and took a good 30 minutes of constant up and down jiggling due to so little space. I did this because I read a couple of the only posts on here where anybody actually wrote about the best way to do this. Now, as y'all know, 2 and 1/2 inches is just about the worst place this could have broke. Still can't get it with a wrench and now, with alot of the curve still there, a friggin' socket won't go on.

The only solution I could come up with was as follows. First, I had to open up the crimp made from breaking the tubing off. No small feat, I promise y'all. A pair of needle nose Vice-Grip pliers and tightening a little on the next bite finally got me a small opening again. I didn't want to get all kinda filings in the tube and I had NO CHOICE but to try and cut it a little shorter, so I rolled up a paper towel into a thin line/point and fed it into the tube as far as I could. Sawzall will no longer work, so the only thing that would fit up in there to just above the nut was a hacksaw blade removed from the hacksaw......only the blade. This wasn't any fun either, but I finally got it cut about three quaters of the way through over an hour later and back and forthed it off again leaving about 1/4" above the nut. STILL wrnch won't get it and I felt it start that rounding process, so I regrouped again and went with the 6 point socket. That flare nut is angeld toward the transmission at about a 45 on the top of the steering box. Once I finally got the socket on it, I could get NO ratchet or breaker bar on it, so AGAIN I had to reconfigure.

To get more room, I felt up in there and figured out that the hard metal pipe right in the way was the dipstick tube for the transmission. I had to recruit the Wife to run about 8 extenstions on a 1/4" drive ratchet from the top while I blindly guided the 10MM socket onto the retaining bolt for that dip tube. Then, I went up top with her because she could not pull the tube out for me. I eventually got it pulled up and out of the trans and didn't realise there would be THAT much trans fluid that would come out, but there was. After cleaning THAT mess up and all over the underside, I got back to work on the nut.

STILL not enough room and by now, I'm pissed! As a last resort, I decided to take the exhaust pipe loose which is ALSO right there next to that dipstick tube. I didn't wanna do this because I figured one was BOUND to have a problem. The car IS over 15 years old and NONE of this has ever been touched, so I cautiously started loosening the two bolts. 10 minutes later, they're both out and just fine! That, I thought, was amazing.

Once ALL THIS STUFF was outta the way, I was able to get a ratchet onto the socket by slowly rotating the drive until I got it lined up with the socket hole and THANK GOD, since I STILL only had about 1/8" to pull on the ratchet......she broke right loose and I was able to FINALLY screw the nut out of the box. The paper towel trick worked great as I had cut right through it when I made the cut and the remainder came out still stuck in the tube with the nut.

Now, once again, I have to wait on the special order replacement hose from NAPA. I do feel pretty confident that it was the high pressure hose leaking because I took the part with the rubber section and put some pressure on it with an air compressor and a plug in the other end while in a bucket of water. There was the pinhole leak! About 1 inch from the crimp on the upstream side!

Boys, I don't wish THIS problem on anybody who still has one of these. Tearing the engine down and doing all that timing work didn't suck NEAR as bad as this little job just did. I'm typing this update right now at 3:00 AM......because I just got that nut out at 2:10 AM.

Thank you to anyone who at least viewed my dilemna here. I know nobody had a reply in time before I dove in, but I know how that goes sometimes! I sent Mr. Robert (robertisaar) a PM and he was able to get me the ONLY diagram I was able to find and AT LEAST I was able to determine that the high pressure hose didn't run all under the car like the return does, so with his help I decided to go ahead and tackle what I could for now.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH, Mr. Robert!

Rob (Eagle-1).

[walterdude]

As a possible suggestion maybe you could drop the subframe 2 or 3 inches in the rear. As I remember the rear bolts are quite long, so you might not have to drop it all the way. Just make sure it is supported so it won't fall on top of you. Loosen all 4 subframe bolts, more on the rear. Should get you a couple of inches to work in anyway. If you have to drop any more than the rear bolts will allow you might have to undo the steering coupler, an easy job.... You'd be surprised how much just a little extra room can help...
I've replaced the steering rack and pump, BUT, the engine/subframe were out of the car already... Sounds like you've pretty much gotten the worst of it done...
Well, good luck and let us know how it all works out!!!
Tom....
PS: There are NOT many of us LQ1 fans around here anymore... Be patient and someone should get around to answering any questions you might have.....
As far as the timing belt goes: The recommended mileage is 60,000 and should be adhered to for the most part. There is a LOT of stress from those 4 cams and 24 valves.. The belt may look good... MANY have learned the hard way: you can't judge a book by it's cover. At the very least, the belts can,, and do stretch and throw off the timing.. It seems like pretty cheap insurance to meeeee!!!

[pocket-rocket]

Holy cow man! I didn't get to read this before work yesterday and forgot about it by the time I got home.

I've done both the pressure line and the rack on one the 91. It can be a pain. I did mine in the car without dropping the subframe or the downpipe. I'm glad you got that chunk out. I was going to suggest dropping the rear of the subframe as I was reading, but Walter already coverd it. As he stated, you don't want to drop it too far without undoing the slip joint. That thing can be a big pain to get back together with the dust covers in place, and they don't like to bend out of the way and stay out of the way too easy which is one of the factors that makes it a big pain.

As you mentioned about the exhaust, that's one thing I love about 60v6 engines. Everything else I've worked on? If you don't have a good heat source, you probably aren't pulling anything apart without something breaking in the process, but not so with our engines

Another thing I was going to mention as I read was the pressure line. Both of my cars have had to have theirs replaced as it's a common problem on the W bodies, from what I've read on the internet. That really sucks that the line is now an ordered item. Back when I had to do the 91 it was an in stock item. I guess that will be one of the salvaged parts that I will hang on to when the 91 is disassembled. I believe you've got the worst part of the job whooped. Getting the new line back in isn't as bad, at least in my case it wasn't, and I hope it's the same way in yours. Good luck, and welcome to the site

[walterdude]

The slip-joint went together easy,,,,, once I figured out that it will only go on one way... I couldn't see up there and was trying to put it together 180 deg off... I spent HOURS with pry bars and wedges and anything I could think of to hold things in place... Finally gave up and went home. Gotta remember I'm missing a leg,, and that's my good one!!! I WAS beat AND frustrated.. Next day it was like, AH-HA. Turned the steering wheel 180 and clunk, it just slid right in!!! 5 minutes tops!! The Moral??? Sometimes it is worth it to just walk away.... When you come back it is usually (hopefully??) a whole new ball-game!!
Later,,,
Tom....

[Eagle-1]

Thank you guys!

Yes, I'm just now, all these years later, having to start working on the car and I could look at that as a good thing? Bad part, so far, has been that every single thing has had to be ordered now. Yes, I finally got the hose out and haven't had to go the subframe route yet, and like y'all said, I'm hoping I don't have to.

It has NOT been fun though. Tearing the whole top of the engine off for the timing was a breeze compared to this.

One good thing about all this is, TWO mechanics told me I would probably end up sending the old girl to the scrap yard because NEITHER had a clue how to even start with that timing job. That was all very dis-heartening when they were telling me all that and one of the two that STILL willing to put me a new belt and such, thought he may never get it timed, wanted at least $1500.00 just to get new timing components on it to even SEE if he wanted to proceed.

I did the whole job, in the garage, for under $350.00 and that price included the four cam bolts I had to order from GM and the two sprocket collets I had to special order online, so who knows where they came from. The price of those two rings alone (with shipping) came to $40.35. GM couldn't get 'em and the only place I found online that could was Nalley Buick GMC Brunswick. The price has DOUBLED from what they show on theire site too and they aren't original GM.....or so they said? They do appear identical though (I just got 'em yesterday) and all I really wanted to replace was that one, so I'm not scared of it.

Guys, the car has been in a garage since it was new and I just could not see throwing it away. I need to get y'all some pictures, I guess, 'cause there's barely even a scratch on it and not one thing that doesn't work. Well, hopefully when I get a new hose delivered.

Hell, from the looks of some of y'all who still have some of these cars/engines, at 140,000.00 miles, I'm just now getting her broke in!

Rob.

[pocket-rocket]

Yeah, my 91 has I think around 165k on it. If it weren't for being rear ended in it and it being declared totaled years ago it would have many many more on it. In fact, I still drove it for a couple years (maybe more than a couple) as a winter beater after I got the 92. I got the 92 (which has roughly 154k on it, IIRC) with the insurance money from the 91 and flew to Texas to get it, hence the 91 being a winter car and the 92 only seeing snow land on it. The paint on the 92 has had a job done on it thanks to the Texas sun, but it's still as solid as the day it left the showroom floor. I should get a video of the doors closing on it, they still sound new. I can't wait to get it painted

[walterdude]

My new/swapped engine has 59,1xx miles and the trans has under 1,000 miles!!! The car itself has just under 200,000. Also EVERYTHING that wears has been rebuilt or replaced... Bushings, bearings, steering gear, fuel tank/pump, brakes, you name it and I've more than likely given it some TLC.... When I did the engine swap I had the complete suspension off and raised up on stands, went together with all new stuff... Of course, from it just sitting for the last 4 or 5 years a whole bunch of things need work or replacing... Maybe someday I can figure out a way to get it registered....
Nite-Nite,,,
Tom....

[Eagle-1]

Guys, there is USUALLY one guy on ebay that sells an LQ1 crate engine for a VERY reasonable price. I know this because I actually bought his engine when I was told (incorrectly) that I wouldn't be able to fix mine. Now, thank goodness, I was told wrong and the guy I bought the engine from is one of the folks who convinced me that I didn't need a new engine. He cancelled the sale and refunded my money and gave me the option to contact him later and he would let me have it if I DID need it later. One of the reasons he didn't want to sell it to me is the engine is for vehicles UP TO a 95 and there would have been many things I would have had to replace for my 96.....mainly the entire upper half.......so he talked me outta buying his, but he does sell brand new 0 mile engines at a very good price if any of y'all ever need one?

His price was even excellent for me just to have a brand new short block! It would cost me MORE to rebuild my engine than buy his complete engine and just use the block. You would still get all the timing components and such too.

Rob.