As a follow on to Brad's rightful observation that we have naturally occurring radioactive decay in the environment, bombarding us from outer space and from a myriad of other natural, terrestrial sources...like my bananas...for instance... sometimes though, people can be too clever by halves for their own good and get themselves into trouble. As you read this...consider the proximity of such a thing to the large bones of the hip, femur and other tissues being exposed to such things, remembering that the human blood supply is grown and nourished inside the larger long bones of the body via the bone marrow. One sure way to visualise what happens during the radioactive decay of unstable radioactive elements is to look at either a Wilson Cloud Chamber (in this example...a Pelttier Cloud Chamber). Basically, this thing is just a Petri Dish fitted with a circle of Black Construction Paper in the bottom, with a .5 inch felt strip glued around the inner rim of the dish, After that, the felt strip is saturated with 91% Pure Isopropyl Alcohol and after the lid is put on...warmed between the hands to vaporise the alcohol into a super-saturated atmosphere inside the sealed dish. dead center inside the dish would be a small sample of a radioactive material as the radiation emitting sample. When placed on a block of Dry Ice, the alcohol atmosphere cools down enough so that as the sub-atomic particles shoot out of the source, they come in contact with the vaporised alcohol and leave behind a cloud trace of their passing movements. Better to watch it here to see what I mean...You just turn out the lights and shine a flash light along the edge of the Petri Dish to see this happening:
There are other sources of ionizing radiation that people can bring close enough to their bodies to put themselves at greater risk for DNA damage to the cells of their bodies. There is a device known as a “Tritium Marker” which is just a glass tube filled with radioactive H3... or Heavy Hydrogen hence the “TRI” in the naming convention. Tritium gas and “Heavy Water' have this common atomic structure that makes its use in atomic weapons as a gas to increase the explosive yield of smaller, more portable kinds of atomic devices as well as in the material used inside Hydrogen Bombs. In this case, a very small amount if the Tritium gas has been introduced into a durable glass sleeve to serve as the excitation cause of the phosphorous coatings to glow.
What happens is, as this radioactive isotope of Hydrogen decays, it emits sub-atomic particles that strike the phosphorous coating inside the tube and raise their individual atoms' energy states temporarily to higher levels. Once the particles pass through the coating, the Phosphorous atoms more or less attempt to return to a more stable, steady state...and accomplish this as a result of emitting or "bleeding of the energy" via photons of light that allow this excess amount of energy to escape in the visible light spectrum...and so...we see the glass tube(s) glowing in the dark...actually it glows constantly...for possibly as long as 10~20 years. That might be a very long time to have so much radiation flinging out in all directions. Remember.... it is NOT the radioactive particles that glow...but rather the Phosphorous...meanwhile those Beta particles continue on their way...penetrating whatever they encounter as deep as their energy states will allow them to do so.
Now this is all very interesting to watch and the Tritium Markers make for a very reliable thing to be able to see things so marked in darkness. But a bigger problem exists when people think these things look like a cute way to mark their key chains, or tape them to the back of the TV controller... or other similar methods of trying to take advantage of the cool, green or blue light that perpetually emanates from within them and allowing these radioactive things in closer proximity than they should. The attached Youtube video has been recorded by a man with a thick Russian accent who has taken the time to expose these nifty little radioactive “toys” to a variety of radiation detection devices...the results of which might come as a very unpleasant surprise to anyone with one of these tubes stringing along with their house and car keys.
One, level-headed Russian... who saves the BEST radiation detector reading for last...
Ain't it cute?
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It's okay man, what didn't kill me made me stronger.Originally posted by 60dgrzbelow0 View PostSince it is not my intent to either harbour or intensify any harsh feelings, it's worth mentioning that TGP37 is really an informed consumer of radiation ...both at Three Mile Island as a Baby...and later as a young male cancer survivor undergoing blood cell killing radiation sufficient to have maximised him out for exposure for the remainder his life. With that sort of honest revelation about his pedigree to discuss the matter, perhaps we owe it to him not to ignore someone so personally connected to the subject. I believe we are All Men of Good Will or we would not spend so much collective time and effort here trying to help each other out with all manner of problems. Hopefully, we can all agree to disagree on almost anything...and still be fair with one another.
And yes, we all have opinions, we all read facts from different studies, we all design our views and beliefs to best fit our little corner of the cosmos.
And ironically, it is our differences that bring us together. I personally disagree with Nuclear Power, but I also realize I am just a person among millions. I expect nothing more then my 1/311000000 vote, lol.
I can understand Bszopi's perspective... it is the dose, not the drug, that counts. Water can kill if we drink enough of it.
But I owe it to myself to speak of my concern and freedom to live a peaceful, healthy life. Chances are strong 3Mile caused my lymphoma, and I reached my radiation maximum for my lifetime in my late 20's. Due to that, Fukushima is dosing me with more I can not afford to receive. Not mentioning the occasional CT scan in the future or dental XRay's.
In light of my experiences, statistics mean nothing when it becomes a reality. It may be 1/10000 before, but it becomes 1/1 for those who are misfortunate enough to become the statistical figure.
To wrap this post up.......You all are my buddies among a forum before we are debators of a global hot topic. And because Bszopi has personal experience in the field and I do not, his opinion has weight. But never under estimate a man who has been inflicted by the sword.....their experience is of a deeper personal nature.Last edited by TGP37; 02-08-2012, 11:21 AM.Leave a comment:
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In the 40+ years nuclear power has been around...Originally posted by bszopi View PostPeople receive radiation every day from natural resources. The brick in your home, the microwave oven, visits to the doctor, etc. It has been proven that people who live within just a couple miles from a nuclear power plant will receive less radiation in a year than a person who goes and gets an x-ray done once in that same year. In the 40+ years nuclear power has been around, there has been 3 "major" disasters. Let's look at an interesting graph to put it in comparison...
Along with the associated article: http://www.good.is/post/nuclear-acci...energy-source/
And since I've been ignoring TGP37 in this discussion, the MOX fuel was only used in the #3 reactor, and only around 6% of the total fuel was MOX. Just for clarification...
Once again ...we are at odds on what constitutes a proper time scale to take the full measure of this problem. Even the Bible calls us out about our own diminished length of life. Read Job 14 where he discusses human mortality:
Job Speaks of the Finality of Death:
1“Man, who is born of woman,
Is short-lived and full of turmoil.
2“Like a flower he comes forth and withers.
He also flees like a shadow and does not remain.
...and then compare that pittance of time against the average half-life of the deadly cocktail; made up of trillions of smoking radioactive particles both Chernobyl and Fukushima have visited upon the world and there you will find our major point of disagreement: The Half-Life of Plutonium is... 245,000 Years...
I concur with you about the reception of background radiation... remembering that it was my excessive consumption of naturally radioactive Bananas that prompted me to jog this nuclear pebble down the snow covered mountain of ill feelings which seems to be growing exponentially as it gathers consternation on its way down.
Concurring with you about "Background and Banana Radiation":
Since it is not my intent to either harbour or intensify any harsh feelings, it's worth mentioning that TGP37 is really an informed consumer of radiation ...both at Three Mile Island as a Baby...and later as a young male cancer survivor undergoing blood cell killing radiation sufficient to have maximised him out for exposure for the remainder his life. With that sort of honest revelation about his pedigree to discuss the matter, perhaps we owe it to him not to ignore someone so personally connected to the subject. I believe we are All Men of Good Will or we would not spend so much collective time and effort here trying to help each other out with all manner of problems. Hopefully, we can all agree to disagree on almost anything...and still be fair with one another.
Last edited by 60dgrzbelow0; 02-08-2012, 03:05 AM.Leave a comment:
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People receive radiation every day from natural resources. The brick in your home, the microwave oven, visits to the doctor, etc. It has been proven that people who live within just a couple miles from a nuclear power plant will receive less radiation in a year than a person who goes and gets an x-ray done once in that same year. In the 40+ years nuclear power has been around, there has been 3 "major" disasters. Let's look at an interesting graph to put it in comparison...
Along with the associated article: http://www.good.is/post/nuclear-acci...energy-source/
And since I've been ignoring TGP37 in this discussion, the MOX fuel was only used in the #3 reactor, and only around 6% of the total fuel was MOX. Just for clarification...Leave a comment:
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Brad...
The source being quoted from as a contribution to the Wiki information comes almost word for word from a site that represents the Nuclear Industry:
So I have to look at what is being purported there as factual with a jaundiced eye on those alleged facts. It is indeed ironic that your entrenched feelings and protective position of the industry is exactly what has lead them into making these kinds of problems worse in the end. Now I say this not to be personally unkind to you because your sense of responsible behaviour and professionalism is obviously high and well-founded as an individual nuclear employee. I'm sure that in every area of dangerous human endeavours there are more people like you than like the fools who turned off the emergency cooling system at Chernobyl and then launched a test from which the system would never recover and caused the meltdown of the nuclear reactor to occur.
There never has been anyone from the power or nuclear service industry that ever told the public the truth about the real dangers they were facing when these tragedies have happened. In part, this is because human beings are only capable of dealing with so much stress when facing the enormity of such disasters. The other part is that what good would it do? How can anyone imagine the difficulty of suddenly uprooting their entire concentrated city populations without knowing which way the ambient winds will blow around huge clouds of radioactive smoke and dust? With that said, your loyalty to that work perhaps makes it impossible for you to be a neutral and Socratic contributor to this discussion if you insist upon ignoring the one, last, salient point at its heart. The real issue here is not whether nuclear radiation kills less people than other social or industrial accidents. The fact remains that it does and will continue to do so...essentially forever. Nuclear Radiation will destroy human and animal life long after there are no more cars or buildings or perhaps even after there are no more people left to worry about dying from its effects. It is THAT frightening future reality that makes the stuff so incredibly ominous. I was trying to avoid adding anything more to drive home this point because THIS is the real difference between dying in a car accident and dying for no reason from something unseen, with no warning and no way to change the outcome. If you can find something comparable in those other mortality statistics that represents anything as horrible as this... then I simply don't know what else to say and you should use your authority to close this thread:
"The Battle for Chernobyl" Full Documentary:
Last edited by 60dgrzbelow0; 02-09-2012, 12:17 AM.Leave a comment:
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Ok, I'll play your little game...
You talk about people indirectly affected by the accident, as the radiation spread all over the globe. Now, let look at automobile accidents. How many of those people were innocent drivers that died at the hands of a drunk driver, who survived the wreck. Its the same damn thing, irregardless of how you care to twist it. What about people who are inside of a building, in which a car drives into and are killed. They weren't even in a vehicle, yet were still killed by a vehicle.
Now lets look at your numbers, quoted from Wikipedia...
So, with that said, you picked the absolute extreme end of the spectrum - 985,000 premature cancer deaths across 18 years. What do they consider premature, and can they specifically tie it to Chernobyl? The American Cancer Society estimates that 550,000 AMERICANS die of cancer EACH YEAR. Given the 2 numbers, and assuming that ALL of the 985,000 were American, less than 10% died sooner than they would have died. But, we all know that not all were Americans. So lets look worldwide. The World Health Organization estimates that 7.6 MILLION people died of cancer in 2008. Assume that average over the entire time period and that gives you ~138 million deaths from cancer since Chernobyl. Again, given your numbers, less than 1% died prematurely.Estimates of the number of deaths potentially resulting from the accident vary enormously: Thirty one deaths are directly attributed to the accident, all among the reactor staff and emergency workers.[10] A UNSCEAR report places the total confirmed deaths from radiation at 64 as of 2008. The World Health Organization (WHO) suggests it could reach 4,000 civilian deaths, a figure which does not include military clean-up worker casualties.[11] A 2006 report predicted 30,000 to 60,000 cancer deaths as a result of Chernobyl fallout.[12] A Greenpeace report puts this figure at 200,000 or more.[13] A Russian publication, Chernobyl, concludes that 985,000 premature cancer deaths occurred worldwide between 1986 and 2004 as a result of radioactive contamination from Chernobyl.
So sure, it looks like big numbers, but in the grand scheme of things, its not. What would be an interesting stat to see is the number of coal workers who died of lung cancer in the same time period. Or, what about people across the world who die from lung cancer due to the burning of coal at coal-fired power plants. Feel free to research those stats and then compare them to Chernobyl or Fukishima.Leave a comment:
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We are back to square one now because we see the problems involved here from completely different metrics of measurement. In the first instance, the fact is that your car accident mortality levels are indeed higher numerically. But in the vacuum of the comparison, perhaps you forget that the people who died in those wrecks were inside the cars and part and parcel to each individual incident. But in the case of the nearly one million who died after the Chernobyl Accident at Pripyat... with the exception of those immediate confused and frightened staff held hostage to the situation and the incredibly brave military soldiers who tried to minimise the damage and died as a result of acute radiation sickness...the majority of the European population killed by this accident who later died as an indirect result were neither on scene at the nuclear plant, culpable for what unfolded there nor had any knowledge that they were to die because of the insidious nature of radioactive fallout. Lets assume from this that motor vehicle accident deaths are obvious acute and ubiquitous events that we can all easily recognise in mobile societies... and nuclear accidents are decidedly fewer in number, but leaving behind an unseen and perpetually chronic after effect in their wake.
The other differing metric at hand here is that in each of the automotive accidents in your measurement, with the exception of some temporary delays in the use of the road, the highways and intersections and a rare kind of structural damage, such as what happened down here to the Skyway Bridge when a sea going tanker struck it during a storm in the Gulf of Mexico, causing the southbound span to collapse, no one will be able to live anywhere near Chernobyl for at least 25,000 years. So when nuclear accidents occur, they are not merely locally destructive in any momentary sense, but leaves the entire area around the site as a Pyhrric wasteland, uninhabitable essentially for all time. Someone will have to stand guard over that area and forbid its use for 10,000 human generations.
Another sad, contrasting measurement here has to do with the environmental effects of the fallout from that one, single accident at Chernobyl... and in time this same phenomena of radioactive fallout will make itself known to the world from the roiling, boiling uncontrolled radiation still pouring out of the plant in Fukushima and up into the sky and into the waters of the Pacific Ocean. In the immediate aftermath of the radiation carried on the wind in a north westerly direction from Chernobyl, the deadly stuff settled on the frozen tundra of a wide area in Scandinavia. The Laplanders pristine and rugged natural existence was ruined when they found out that their ruminant deer and elk populations were indiscriminately eating contaminated soil, dirt and snow along with all the sparse lichens and vegetation they scour from the landscape. Over one and half million of these animals had to be destroyed and buried, lest they vector their deadly cargo into the human population of the region. This list of collateral environmental damage and the disruption of the normality in the world goes on an on and is never present in the measurement of motor vehicle accidents. The only common ground that we can find in this discussion is that all of the people involved in car accidents and all the people poisoned by radiation who died... are dead. Beyond that... the two things are incomparable on a monumental scale of differences.
Last edited by 60dgrzbelow0; 02-09-2012, 12:11 AM.Leave a comment:
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Chernobyl was a horrible accident, but if you read about it, Russia itself is to blame for all of it. Their reactor designs are not inherently safe. The fact that they were running tests on the reactor at the time of the accident, tests that had previously failed multiple times before (IIRC), shows their blatant disregard for safety. But to say that you can't compare it to other industries is ridiculous. You specifically gave a number of 985,000 humans being affect in the 25 years since the accident happened. According to the World Health Organization, in 2007, 1.2 million people died in automotive accidents alone. So how can you not compare the two?Originally posted by 60dgrzbelow0 View Post
I do not agree that Fukishima was worse than Chernobyl. In fact, even weeks after the accident, I don't remember ever hearing any nuclear experts stating as such. The plant at Fukishima was a well designed plant, and actually had many redundant systems installed, all of which were operating properly after the earthquake. The failure came when a 50ft wave came over the 30ft (??) sea wall and wiped out the diesel generators that were in the process of cooling the cores. Fukishima was designed for a worst case scenario. It was designed above and beyond what history told them would be the worst-case scenario. Unfortunately, you can never design for a worst-case scenario, not matter what. Look at the Twin Towers for instance - they were designed to take a hit from an airplane, and they did just that. The problem was, they were designed around a plane of that time, not around a plane 20yrs in the future. Not around transcontinental planes full loaded with most likely twice the fuel of the plane of the time. There is NO WAY to ever design ANYTHING for a worst-case scenario, because it will either be too expensive that building it will not warrant the cost, or there will always be some instance of a scenario that exceeds the "worst-case" scenario the item was designed for.and now we face the more dangerous Fukishima debacle.Leave a comment:
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Tokyo is the 3rd largest financial capitol in the world. It should have been evacuated because of the proximity to the disaster. BUT, shutting down Tokyo would lead to a global collapse. So the situation was dire, and if they told the truth to the masses across the MSM, as a lot of people feel they should have, we could be in a financial apocalypse.
I was 1 year old when Three Mile Island happened. I was also directly downwind at the time. It is speculated that could have been the cause of my cancer diagnosis at 27 yrs.
So the powers that rule decided to allow some people to live in false security near Fukushima so the world can avoid a massive financial hit.
And there is a much larger danger coming for the west coast. I learned there is a massive area of debris from the tsunami in the Pacific. Which was exposed to VERY high levels of radiation. When that crap starts to beach and collect over time, the west coast is gonna be hot.
I was told, by family in the Navy, a Carrier group near Japan sailed through the drifting radiation and detected levels far higher then what we are told. So much so the entire fleet had to scrub down after leaving the area. And that the radioactive cloud was, occasionally, setting off detection devices as far as South Carolina. Detection devices used for local nuke plants.
And since Japan isn't allowed to dump radioactive material into the Ocean, they are dumping into Tokyo Bay.
Unfuckingbelievable
Bszopi, being experienced in the nuclear field....what is your opinion?Last edited by TGP37; 02-06-2012, 09:38 AM.Leave a comment:
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Originally posted by TGP37 View Post
...and from 1982 an interesting interview (Public Access TV) concerning Three Mile Island and "We Almost Lost Detroit"
...here NOVA re-visits the Chernobyl Scene in 1991
Last edited by 60dgrzbelow0; 02-08-2012, 09:16 AM.Leave a comment:
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I hope Geoff..."Betterthanyou" is not close to this man's location:
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Ah yes, I know that piece. I studied classical music theory for a few years to enhance my creative output on guitar.
When I saw reactor 1 explode, it looked like a typical hydrogen explosion from gases building up in the ceiling of the structure. But when reactor 3 exploded, it was not from the ceiling line. It was focused directly upwards and a very large object was ejected. I had the pics of that object in the roof of the building next to it. It was hard to see but it looked like the cap to the reaction chamber.
I just can not believe reactor 3's explosion was a hydrogen build up in the ceiling. The chamber blew wide open and there was MOX fuel in there.
MOX, mixed oxide fuel contains other oxide fissile materials. In this case it was plutonium from weapons plants. The fact they put that in a boiling water reactor, imho, was very stupid.Leave a comment:
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From the moment the Fukushima story started to unfold... all I kept hearing inside my head that day while watching the situations grow from bad to worse was this music. Somehow...it seems very appropriate to share its power here:
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I can appreciate what you say. I haven't operated a nuclear anything. What I know is from bits and pieces over the years. I did read a lot about immediate release and delayed release neutrons. And how power plants can slowly ebb the reaction by the control rods to gently adjust the number of fission events.Originally posted by bszopi View Post
Am I accurate with my understanding?
Maybe it isn't the nuclear reactor itself I have anger towards in Fukushima. Rather the choices made leading to the disaster.
Using MOX fuel on a fault line near the 3rd largest financial capitol of the world...? Putting spent fuel rods above the reactor chambers?
I feel more could have been done to secure the plant better just in case. Or atleast have a rapid action plan to entomb the beast before it gets out of control.
One bone I do have with nuclear tech is this.........WTF do we do if the Sun hits us with a strong Carrington like event? You can power those generators only so long. The reactor can be shut down...but the spent fuel pool needs constant cooling or else it melts down in time. If the global power grid ever gets fried, God forbid, were all fucked more way then one. The eventual fall-out would be an ELE easily, imho. Unless I am missing something.Last edited by TGP37; 02-04-2012, 05:40 PM.Leave a comment:
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Brad... What an interesting thing to reveal about your skills set and experiences...and thanks for your honest self-appraisal. That revelation is amazing. Obviously it is hard for anyone outside of the "Nuclear Bubble" to completely understand these things. But the fact remains that these failures in Japan are real...and that part of the world will never be the same again...ever. I know a lot of stuff about a lot of things and I generally don't talk out of my a** about things I haven't researched and given deep thought to about most major subjects that raise my concern. The damaged and in need of repair Crystal River Nuclear Plant 100 miles north of my home concerns me. You should know that as a well read man, back in the 1980's, I read this book about the near meltdown of the first liquid Sodium metal cooled fast breeder reactor called "Fermi One" that almost destroyed the City of Detroit, Michigan . Here is this very book that covers the matter; arguably in a very even-handed manner, even though the title starkly poses itself as an edgy lead-on to read the damned thing as: "We Almost Lost Detroit!" One memorable chapter covered the fact that when one of the technicians that was trying to force a cadmium rod deeper into the core by hand in order to stop the reactor from running away, when the rod was pressurised by the escaping radioactive steam, the rod exploded upwards like a projectile and blew a hole through his chest/head area, naturally killing the man as he was pinned in the upper rafters by the forces of this explosion. IIRC, later they had to cut off his head and/or his hands because they were so radioactive, then they needed to be encased in concrete glass and buried separately inside of a 55 gallon drum that will remain radioactive for 550,000 years. What a horrible way to die while trying to do the right thing.Originally posted by bszopi View Post
It is too facile to suggest that a comparison of risk between the automotive, aviation and petroleum or coal mining industries accidents represent anything vaguely close to the cascade of permanent damage to the world when something goes wrong in the nuclear energy realm. I cannot get my mind around the idea that, say for example , the problem of the GM Chevrolet Corvair being "Unsafe At Any Speed" as coined in the book by the same name as penned by the consumer advocate Ralph Nader is in the same league as the reactor meltdown at Chernobyl that to date has either killed directly or indirectly 985,000 human beings from early deaths from cancer... and now we face the more dangerous Fukishima debacle. It might seem like a very distant place... but since the yearly tsunamis that trouble that region often launch gigantic floating islands of debris that make their way across the Pacific Ocean and wind up washing up on the Western Pacific Coastline of the United States...perhaps we should take the matter to heart, Still.. I value your thoughts here and we should not imagine that nuclear energy is just some "Boogie Man" being conjured up in our imaginations... but is actually a very real Lucifer...who...once released from Hades... can walk about on the surface of the earth at will and destroy us without anyway to know when he is doing it with radiation that is odourless, colourless and tasteless....and essentially...endless.Attached FilesLast edited by 60dgrzbelow0; 02-10-2012, 05:22 AM.Leave a comment:
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