turbo or supercharger

Using MAP, how are you tuning accurately? I am trying to learn to burn now and having trouble finding good info on boosted MAP set-ups.
Thanx for the props on the Firebird, I was infomed last night that the pics do it no justice by a member on another board that I met at the drag strip.
I guess the $150 is a close estimate, I got my BOV for $32, WG for $82, and Silicone for $34. The turbos with internal WG's are more expensive, however, I got my turbo for $170 delivered (+$82 for WG = $252). Total invested excluding tools is right at $701 untill I order the pipes. I also saved some money by having a good friend that works at a CNC machine shop. Click on the link in my signature and there is a break-down of what was spent so far on the install.

You assumed correctly that I am using a 1 bar MAP, however that was the point of my mentioning the need for good tuning equipment to tune properly. My current turbo buildup will utilize the TGP bin file which is programmed for a 2 bar MAP. As for what I'm currently doing I use an air/fuel ratio meter and add fuel to the WOT part of the base fuel map, and the acceleration enrichment rpm table and then take a little timing out of WOT timing and it holds up pretty well. The air fuel meter is a must help feel your way around but data logging with a wideband O2 sensor is a must to get close to what it needs to be.

[ForcedFirebird]

Mendrel bent tubing is when a pipe is bent and retains the same internal dimensions(to help flow), unlike typical exhaust systems that have a "crumpled" or "pinched" effect on the inside of the bend.

[alainman15]

If you can do it yourself you'll save a good bit of money the first time you do it and even more each time after that:

MIG welder ~$250
Saws all to cut tubing ~$35
Mandrel bends/straight tubing ~$125 worth exhaust to turbo needs to be stainless or 14 gauge for longevity against the heat.
Turbo ~$350
Odds and ends ~$150

The most important items that is rarely mentioned in turbo projects because they are missing, GOOD, COMPLETE, TUNING, EQUIPMENT- a data logger and chip programming equipment ~$700 something with exhaust temp reading and wideband O2 sensing.

I've built enough turbo motors to know that for once I need to buy data logging equipment to find out exactly where changes need to be made and I'm going to take the Zeitronix route.

k i can get access 2 most of those tools. except what are mandrel bend is it a bending proccess or a type of bent tube? u make it sound so cheap, is that american currency?

[ForcedFirebird]

First that's a beautiful bird, looks just like my 85 did, same color, I'd like to find a nice GTA.

I didn't forget anything, the couplers and optional external wastegate and BOV were included in the $150 extra. I use internal wastegates which have come with my turbos and as for an FMU I do all tuning in the chip, no add on fuel or timing management. When I'm consistently on a fast internet link I'll try to post my sources for good prices on parts particularly the silicone that gets very pricey. I've seen some ~$50 external wastegates and lower priced BOVs on Ebay however the problem is finding a reasonably priced fully adjustable unit as opposed to spring limited.

By using the internal along with the TGP solenoid setup I can program in desired boost levels over the RPM/MAP range. I also over estimated the tuning equipment costs to allow some price flexibility as well.

Using MAP, how are you tuning accurately? I am trying to learn to burn now and having trouble finding good info on boosted MAP set-ups.
Thanx for the props on the Firebird, I was infomed last night that the pics do it no justice by a member on another board that I met at the drag strip.
I guess the $150 is a close estimate, I got my BOV for $32, WG for $82, and Silicone for $34. The turbos with internal WG's are more expensive, however, I got my turbo for $170 delivered (+$82 for WG = $252). Total invested excluding tools is right at $701 untill I order the pipes. I also saved some money by having a good friend that works at a CNC machine shop. Click on the link in my signature and there is a break-down of what was spent so far on the install.

Moates.net has GM burning equipment and you can get started for around $200. In your list, you forgot wastegate, BOV, silicone couplers and FMU for a MAP equipped car. Not including the cost of tools, my parts cost almost $1000 (including an intercooler).
And I agree with you that the cast pistons will hold up if tuned properly.
Here's a link to 30PSI on stock cast pistons. First detonation made the piston look like crumpled tinfoil.
http://www.thedodgegarage.com/the_reliant.html

First that's a beautiful bird, looks just like my 85 did, same color, I'd like to find a nice GTA.

I didn't forget anything, the couplers and optional external wastegate and BOV were included in the $150 extra. I use internal wastegates which have come with my turbos and as for an FMU I do all tuning in the chip, no add on fuel or timing management. When I'm consistently on a fast internet link I'll try to post my sources for good prices on parts particularly the silicone that gets very pricey. I've seen some ~$50 external wastegates and lower priced BOVs on Ebay however the problem is finding a reasonably priced fully adjustable unit as opposed to spring limited.

By using the internal along with the TGP solenoid setup I can program in desired boost levels over the RPM/MAP range. I also over estimated the tuning equipment costs to allow some price flexibility as well.

[ForcedFirebird]

MIG welder ~$250
Saws all to cut tubing ~$35
Mandrel bends/straight tubing ~$125 worth exhaust to turbo needs to be stainless or 14 gauge for longevity against the heat.
Turbo ~$350
Odds and ends ~$150

The most important items that is rarely mentioned in turbo projects because they are missing, GOOD, COMPLETE, TUNING, EQUIPMENT- a data logger and chip programming equipment ~$700 something with exhaust temp reading and wideband O2 sensing.

Moates.net has GM burning equipment and you can get started for around $200. In your list, you forgot wastegate, BOV, silicone couplers and FMU for a MAP equipped car. Not including the cost of tools, my parts cost almost $1000 (including an intercooler).
And I agree with you that the cast pistons will hold up if tuned properly.
Here's a link to 30PSI on stock cast pistons. First detonation made the piston look like crumpled tinfoil.
http://www.thedodgegarage.com/the_reliant.html

91 octane eh? what about injectors would they be fine as is? and how can i lower engine heat so the motor doesn't over heat or mainly 2 try and avoid predetination with a lower grade fuel like 89 gas prices hurt now days (hope i got the heat & detination thing right) im usin 87 octane right now.

im just a cheap guy looking 4 a cheep way i guess. but what must be done, must be done if i really want it.

aww man I feel like an idiot right now.

If you can do it yourself you'll save a good bit of money the first time you do it and even more each time after that:

MIG welder ~$250
Saws all to cut tubing ~$35
Mandrel bends/straight tubing ~$125 worth exhaust to turbo needs to be stainless or 14 gauge for longevity against the heat.
Turbo ~$350
Odds and ends ~$150

The most important items that is rarely mentioned in turbo projects because they are missing, GOOD, COMPLETE, TUNING, EQUIPMENT- a data logger and chip programming equipment ~$700 something with exhaust temp reading and wideband O2 sensing.

I've built enough turbo motors to know that for once I need to buy data logging equipment to find out exactly where changes need to be made and I'm going to take the Zeitronix route.

As for pistons to each his own, but until I get definative proof that stock pistons can't handle upwards of 15 properly tuned and cooled psi I'm sticking with stock. I've seen more examples of properly tuned stock pistons surviving long and prosperous boosted use. The break down stories I have read almost always involve some mention of poor tuning and a good bit of track time in that state. I don't intend to race so most of my driving would be sedate sports car driving.

I believe GM refers to hypereutectic pistons as cast also, I destroyed some firebird 3.4L pistons with severe detonation and they chipped up like hypereutectic pistons. How many boosted stock GM cars have forged pistons, and keep in mind GM doesn't tend to run anything on the edge for warranty reasons, there's almost always lots of room between stock and the limit.

If you want good power start with the largest 60 degree V6 you can get not just what you have, that way you don't have to turn the boost way up from the start. The TGP outfit will work on the other engines you just need to work in a larger turbo.

If you tune it properly you can run at least 7psi on 87 octane, if you use an intercooler and water injection together 10 or more.

Get a good up to date book on turbocharging and build your documented knowledge so that you'll have a better idea of what's possible.

The little import 4 cylinders are being run into the psi-teens all the time as well as the stock GM forced induction cars, don't be afraid. Someone needs to find out what the limits are.

[alainman15]

ya i think your right. its just that you have 2 keep putting gas into the car and it adds up. but boost doesnt come without sacrifice.

thx all i keep all this info in mind.

[ForcedFirebird]

If you are interested in boosting your car, the difference in the gas prices will be insignificant in comparison to the money you are going to spend on doing it right.

[alainman15]

91 octane eh? what about injectors would they be fine as is? and how can i lower engine heat so the motor doesn't over heat or mainly 2 try and avoid predetination with a lower grade fuel like 89 gas prices hurt now days (hope i got the heat & detination thing right) im usin 87 octane right now.

im just a cheap guy looking 4 a cheep way i guess. but what must be done, must be done if i really want it.

aww man I feel like an idiot right now.

[timg]

Just a forewarning.

Putting on a supercharger or turbocharger is almost never cheap or easy (unless you happen to do that sort of thing all day, every day). Both will require custom fabrication and will probably result in some compromise to daily drivability. Both will require at least 91 octane gas.

For 15 psi, you should look into forged pistons. For 8-10 psi, stock will probably be fine. The temperature of the intake air and the tuning of the car will make HUGE differences in the amount of power you make and how reliably that power is made. Josh (malibuolds) has mounted the complete setup from a TGP on a non-TGP engine with 200k+ miles on it. That engine has held up just fine.

The supercharger from the Grand Prix GTP is a great idea if you either have a machine shop or know someone who does. Otherwise, the cost savings of the used supercharger will be completely blown on the mounting hardware for that supercharger.

Your easiest and cheapest option will be to try to make a TGP clone and hope that it doesn't blow up.

Tim

[alainman15]

But this means you couldn't use your 3.1, that's where I was going.

ok i get u. i knew that 1 it would be nice if it could fit but it doesn't so i guess my best is now after market. i was just informed that the tgps are cast like the others.

[ForcedFirebird]

i think ur confused he is saying that they bave the same bore but the other just has a longer stroke

But this means you couldn't use your 3.1, that's where I was going.

[ForcedFirebird]

Sorry joeseph, I see where you said if he used the 3500 block.

[alainman15]

I don't know if the cyl walls are thick enough to go to from 89mm to 94mm in the 3.1. Anybody know?

i think ur confused he is saying that they bave the same bore but the other just has a longer stroke