turbo or supercharger

[ForcedFirebird]

The new 3.6L DOHC motor is the only 60 degree engine I'm aware of that has a forged rotating assembly including pistons. The closest you can get to using them is in the 3500 block which has a 94mm bore and 84mm stroke, the 3.6L has a 94mm bore and an 85.6mm stroke which depending on the pin placement in the piston might work out perfect if it brings the piston down 1.6mm because the 3.6L has a 10.2:1 compression ratio which suggests you would still have good compression for forced induction. The forged piston information is from GM not speculation or hear say. Even the main bearing caps are steel.

On a different note, until you see it documented there is no telling what type of material GM has used to manufacture various parts especially in the new 34-35 and 3900 the latter two offered with a steel crank and higher compression ratio suggesting a piston upgrade is warranted over straight cast given the added stress. Who knows. Regardless, todays cast piston is certainly a better part than those produced years ago.

Per GM Parts direct:

2006 Cadi CTS 3.6L piston= $50.60, rod $50.22
2006 Malibu Maxx 3500 piston w/pin only= $75.30 rods $42.12 and $29.86
2006 Pontiac G6 3500= $75.30 includes connecting rod

I would say it's worth investigating, I imagine the rod price difference for the malibu involves 3" and 3.31" differences for that year engine. 1.6mm is not a lot and it is very possible the 3.6L piston has the same pin location as that found on the 3500 piston and that's what resulted in a jump from 9.8:1 compression in the 3500 to 10.2:1 in the 3.6L. We just need to know the rod specifications to verify it. The forging process probably accounts for the price difference between the two.

The CTS pistons are forged aluminum and full floating in piston and rod.

I don't know if the cyl walls are thick enough to go to from 89mm to 94mm in the 3.1. Anybody know?

[alainman15]

well than maybe i'll go down 2 around 8- 10 psi. i just want more power so i dont get wasted will racing.

if the tgp pistons are better than ill go with those i think unless anyone has any reason that can covince me

what is the octane requirement for a tgp

[bjornmk1]

gpt pistons

the gpt 3.1 turbo pistons are from MAHLE and are somewhat stronger
than standard(or hypereutic) pistons.

they will hold about 12 psi reliable

15psi is wort forged ones...at least I would upgrade to
forged ones or turn down the boost to 8psi max.

just my 2cts.

The new 3.6L DOHC motor is the only 60 degree engine I'm aware of that has a forged rotating assembly including pistons. The closest you can get to using them is in the 3500 block which has a 94mm bore and 84mm stroke, the 3.6L has a 94mm bore and an 85.6mm stroke which depending on the pin placement in the piston might work out perfect if it brings the piston down 1.6mm because the 3.6L has a 10.2:1 compression ratio which suggests you would still have good compression for forced induction. The forged piston information is from GM not speculation or hear say. Even the main bearing caps are steel.

On a different note, until you see it documented there is no telling what type of material GM has used to manufacture various parts especially in the new 34-35 and 3900 the latter two offered with a steel crank and higher compression ratio suggesting a piston upgrade is warranted over straight cast given the added stress. Who knows. Regardless, todays cast piston is certainly a better part than those produced years ago.

Per GM Parts direct:

2006 Cadi CTS 3.6L piston= $50.60, rod $50.22
2006 Malibu Maxx 3500 piston w/pin only= $75.30 rods $42.12 and $29.86
2006 Pontiac G6 3500= $75.30 includes connecting rod

I would say it's worth investigating, I imagine the rod price difference for the malibu involves 3" and 3.31" differences for that year engine. 1.6mm is not a lot and it is very possible the 3.6L piston has the same pin location as that found on the 3500 piston and that's what resulted in a jump from 9.8:1 compression in the 3500 to 10.2:1 in the 3.6L. We just need to know the rod specifications to verify it. The forging process probably accounts for the price difference between the two.

The CTS pistons are forged aluminum and full floating in piston and rod.

[alainman15]

just so were clear im not looking 4 forged.

ill ask the gm parts guy here about the gp pistons think im gonna need bigger injector? higner octane (usin 87 right now) anthing else that i might b missing?

thx all 4 the help

[ForcedFirebird]

Remote mount turbo is when you mount it away from the exhaust manifold. Some people will remove the muffler and tap into the exhaust there to supply the turbo with heat/gasses. You would have to figure out a way for oiling and for your intake charge to be routed back to the intake/TB here's some info (this was done on a Cavalier, similar to your platform)...
(Click here)
.
Again with good tuning, you should have no problem with the stock pistons. I am unsure if the GP pistons were different, to my knowledge there are NO forged pistons from a stock 60* .
.
Here's a link to the Relentless car that saw 30psi on cast pistons...
(Click here)

[alainman15]

To my knowledge (what little I have left, lol) no GM 60degree pistons were forged. I searched for myself only to find that you'll have to do one of three things :
1. Pay for custom pistons.
2. Use another manfucturers pistons and have them modified to fit.
3. Use hypereutectic piston which are better than cast, not as good as forged.
But with proper tuning I've seen 30PSI on cast pistons, although the first detonation in this motor was catastophic.
.
Have you thought about a remote mount turbo in place of your muffler?
I agree with the others that it's not going to be easy to get the 90 degree S/C to work on the 60. For a remote mount S/C, I've heard of guys using the Ford S/C because it is easier to make a flange for it. Have you looked into centrifical vs. roots, might be easier to fit in your cramped engine bay.

i want 2 use hypereutectic piston because they arent as expensive as forged and i don't plan on boosting above 15 psi or using nos. so that is y im trying 2 find out what grade my pistons are. Are tgp pistons stronger or not?

and what exactly is a remote mount turbo?

[ForcedFirebird]

To my knowledge (what little I have left, lol) no GM 60degree pistons were forged. I searched for myself only to find that you'll have to do one of three things :
1. Pay for custom pistons.
2. Use another manfucturers pistons and have them modified to fit.
3. Use hypereutectic piston which are better than cast, not as good as forged.
But with proper tuning I've seen 30PSI on cast pistons, although the first detonation in this motor was catastophic.
.
Have you thought about a remote mount turbo in place of your muffler?
I agree with the others that it's not going to be easy to get the 90 degree S/C to work on the 60. For a remote mount S/C, I've heard of guys using the Ford S/C because it is easier to make a flange for it. Have you looked into centrifical vs. roots, might be easier to fit in your cramped engine bay.

[alainman15]

The stock 3800 SC out of a Grand Prix GTP will put out 8 psi. On a 3.1 it'll probably be more (same airflow on a smaller motor = more boost) so you might want to be prepared to get a slightly larger pulley to keep things reliable. The SC'ed 3800's were built for boost. The 60 degree's were not.

i hear you. that is why im trying to find out if the grand prix tgp's pistons are the same as my sunbird or not. (they were built 4 boost) if they are i dont see any problems. if they are stronger then ill buy some from GM (hope they still manufacture them) i have a knocking cylinder anyways, so y not.

there isnt anything else engine wise i need to do eh?

ya a larger pully would probley be a good idea.

Turbocharge a 3400, it's smaller than the 3800 SC, it's lighter and more efficient for example the naturally aspirated 3800 V6 produces about 10 more lb/ft of torque than the 3500 and the same amount of horse power, that's a tiny advantage having .3 more litres and at 7-8 psi you probably will not see any trouble with the smaller engine if the current blown engines performance is any indication. Having pretuned examples of the 3800SC available in my opinion is the only real advantage. The production turbo kit for the 3400 put down more average power at the wheels on 9 psi than the 3800SC is rated for at the crank. Give it some thought as to what you really want though.

http://www.turbochargedpower.com/Pontiac%20Grand%20Am.htm

[Azrael]

The stock 3800 SC out of a Grand Prix GTP will put out 8 psi. On a 3.1 it'll probably be more (same airflow on a smaller motor = more boost) so you might want to be prepared to get a slightly larger pulley to keep things reliable. The SC'ed 3800's were built for boost. The 60 degree's were not.

[alainman15]

ya were talkin stock here. any electrical equiptment needed 4 the turbo?

and what pressure does the super charger put out? using stock pullies same crankpully and stock sc pully.

upon closer inspection of the engine bay... in basicly screwed 4 space if i put in a super charger. but i might find a way.

i like a challenge

[bszopi]

I never said I was a turbo expert Curtis....

[TurboZ24]

"The 3.1L turbo from the TGPs? IIRC, it was rated for around 10-12psi"

Are we talking stock? the stock TGP was 7-8 psi, 9.5 psi was the stock fuel cut off boost level.

[alainman15]

ya i thought about that after i maded the tread. didnt think that 1 through. but the concept is more simple it think.maybe if i mount it behind the intake? but that would mean taking that out if i wanted 2 get 2 the spark plugs. plus there isn't much room back there 2 begin with. i just dont really like the concept of playing around with my exhaust pipes.i still am researching more into it for what would be better.

r the pistons in my car the same as the tgp or are the tgp pistons stronger(better