Iron-head 2.8MPFI Turbo Install / 85 Celebrity

[timg]

Wow. This is a very impressive build. Very few people take their time and are this meticulous. It looks amazing so far and I can't wait to see it all finished.

Tim

[Purple pit]

Sounds good on the mains and bore. Man David you have the same car. The only thing different is the color(his is black). I'm sure he is not on any forum. I'll get as much info as I can on the car(could be months before I get anything).

[1988GTU]

Look on the bright side. That parts guy cant harm a motor lacking you some parts and is delaying you spending money haha

[davida1_hiwaay_net]

Um I beg to differ with that last statement... I have those pistons in my old 2001 3400 that I built for my beretta... I removed the pistons to do head gaskets and general run through after it ran for a while and the coating was starting to rub off where the scuffing happens...

You can barely see it in this photo but the coating was coming off where they hit.

No arguing that the coating doesn't help though... I'm sure it helps a bit but it's not a permanent solution.

Well, I hope it stays on this one for a while. Even if it wears off after while, that gives some time before the piston skirt actually touches the bore. So it has to help some.

Did you notice any difference in the sound of the engine? My Buick 3.8 with coated forged pistons is noticably quieter than a friend's Buick with uncoated forged pistons.

The ones in this build are cast HE pistons, so the sound difference may not be much.

So a line hone and line bore would cost too much?
Is the scuff do to the fact that it is a 60 degree engine?

Machinist checked the main bearing alignment, and it was in spec so no need to align hone the mains of the 3.1 block. The bores also were within specification for Standard. It just needed a little honing to give it crosshatch.

The main reason for the new pistons is to get the correct compression ratio for the iron-head engine; but I would have not been comfortable with the scuffed pistons. I really think probably the engine was overheated or run WAY past oil change interval causing the scuffing. Several folks here have said the older engines (Gen II) were not bad to scuff or slap. It was mainly the 3x00. Once again, I am not a specialist on the 60 degree engines; however I have a lot of experneice with many different types of engines.

Got one for you David. A guy up the street has a vert A body 2 door. I told him I didn't know any were made. I'll have to ask him what it is and see if I can get some pics. It's in great shape and if I remember right it has less than 100k.

That would be very cool to see! I wonder if he's on a-body.net? I have a very sad project car Olds Ciera 'Vert. Needs everything from engine build to complete restoration. I bought it in South Florida and dollied it home behind my 4 door Century. It has a fully built 4T65EHD transmission so I was able to pull the second car without overstressing the transmission. Just took it slow because of the braking and weight concerns.

On the road, overnight stop at Quality Inn in Ozark, Alabama.


After washing.


Today I got half the pistons installed. Had to stop after three because only had 3 rod bearings. I guess the guy thought the engine needed a "set of bearings" for each bank, and I only asked for one set. So much incompetence at the parts stores these days... :rant:

Machine shop installed pistons on rods today. It was quick and easy because they had a special heating stove to put the rods in.


Going in with #1. Got rubber caps on the rod bolts to protect the crank journal.


No gouges in the journal with the caps.


Assembly lubed #2 cap going on.


First 3 in. All rods have side clearence and the engine turns by hand easily. Looking good, but frustrated I don't have the bearings.



Later,
David

[Purple pit]

So a line hone and line bore would cost too much?
Is the scuff do to the fact that it is a 60 degree engine?

Got one for you David. A guy up the street has a vert A body 2 door. I told him I didn't know any were made. I'll have to ask him what it is and see if I can get some pics. It's in great shape and if I remember right it has less than 100k.

[3400-95-Modified]

Um I beg to differ with that last statement... I have those pistons in my old 2001 3400 that I built for my beretta... I removed the pistons to do head gaskets and general run through after it ran for a while and the coating was starting to rub off where the scuffing happens...

You can barely see it in this photo but the coating was coming off where they hit.



No arguing that the coating doesn't help though... I'm sure it helps a bit but it's not a permanent solution.

[davida1_hiwaay_net]

Alright got a small update today!

The first part is from a few days back. This is where Chris and I worked on the weatherstripping. I had pulled some stripping off junk cars, and kept it for projects like this. There are pretty well never any coupes in the junkyard with good weatherstripping. They quit making the A-body 2-door coupes so long ago. The 1995 and 1996 A-cars (all 4 door) have the best weatherstripping. So those will have to be adapted to the coupe.

The trick is to insert a section of the rear sedan door weatherstripping into the front door weatherstripping. Do the insertion at the bottom, so the seam will be out of the weather and less noticable.

As for the critical area, the top rear corner. This is where the stripping always wants to pull apart and fail. The 1995 and 1996 cars have a reinforcement piece on the back. It is glued to the weatherstripping.

This is the back of the rear corner, with the reinforcement piece.


Piece removed. The bond gets weak with time, and I find it best to pull this off and re-glue it with superglue.


The reinforced stripping installed, with Gorilla Tape covering the glue joint on the front. This will keep the glued seam protected.


A small square of this tape, carefully trimmed with a razor blade, makes an inconspicuous corner reinforcement.


The secondary seal installed on the top of the door, using 3M Super Weatherstripping Adhesive, Black. This helps keep noise and water out.



Now for the engine!

Got the block back from the machine shop. It's pretty clean, but the inside of the oil gallerys is a little rusty. I used nylon bristle brushes and the pressure washer to clean them out. before assembly. Don't want any debris to damage the new bearings. No dirt in there! The design of the oil system scares me. There are blind areas behind the cam bearings that could trap debris. I used a straight-jet pressure washer tip at maximum power 3500 PSI. It is scary and vicious at that level. But I am sure there is NOTHING left in the galleries. If it is there, and the pressure washer couldn't remove it - then engine oil pressure won't remove it either. So it will never dislodge and damage the engine.


I had them install wider cam bearings specified for a SBC engine (thanks to you guys' sugestion!) This will give the camshaft support across the entire journal area. Should help with long life of the engine. This is hard to understand what you are seeing, but it's the cam journal, with the bearing fully supporting it and some bearing extending beyond the journal. Both sides of the journal fully supported.


Main bearing upper inserts in place.


Crank in place. Sealant and assembly lube on the cap and bearing.


Mains in and torqued. New timin set re-installed. I had run the engine about 200 miles before the mains failed. The timing set is still like new.


Timing cover on and torqued.


The original 3.1 pistons. They are all scuffed to some degree or another.


This is caused by metal-to-metal contact with the cylinder bore. Overheating is a prime cause, as is diluted or contaminated oil. Notice the up-and-down scratches in the blackened area? Other than those accidental scratches, the piston is worn smooth. Not knowing the history of the donor car, there is no telling how this happened.


This one is not bad. Notice the knurling marks are still there. The new pistons are "coated" on the skirt area. Instead of knurling, they have an antifriction coating applied to the skirts. This will completely prevent scuffing.


This is just a parts book illustration but you can see the piston skirt is grey color? That is the coating. It will not come off. I've seen completely destroyed pistons where this coating was still there, on the broken pieces!


Tomorrow the new pistons are supposed to arrive. Maybe can get them installed on the rods tomorrow.

[3400-95-Modified]

HOLY CHIT that rust stuff looks awesome... I'm picking up some of that tonight!

[davida1_hiwaay_net]

I thank you on that, but a turbo is a dream at this point. One day if something fell out of the blue into my lap then.......
I like to everything I can before something is called done, so I understand on the turbo bearings. My failures are do to making things right to the highest point in one area and rushing another. All in the name of getting back lost time. Just a personal hang up I guess(lol).

I understand that all too well! I try to get every one of my restoration projects "drivable" as soon as possible and it ends up costing me more in the longrun sometime.

I wasn't under the impression that it would convert rust, it's the shear rust removal that got my attention.

If I had a part I could let soak over night while I got other stuff done instead of blasting or using my wire wheel I would. Not only that, my big shop vac pulls too much of a vacuum in my blast cabinet and over half my glass bead has gone MIA, lol. Since I discovered that I got some old pantyhose from my wife and put multiple pairs over the vac port of my cabinet to help combat it, along with getting a much smaller vac when I saw them on sale at Lowe's for about $20-25.

The fan motor idea is a really good one. Nothing sucks more than pulling something apart and breaking half of the fasteners.

Thanks for the info :-)

LOL at the lost blast media. I feel your pain there. Mounted a blower on my cabinet to exhaust the dust outside, but it is too strong and all the glass beads end up in the yard! When powered up, the gloves automatically stick straight out into the cabinet and the door will hardy open. It's a heck of a blower, came from an old commercial printing machine about 10 years ago. I've got to install a filter inside the cabinet, of some mesh too fine to allow beads to pass, but will allow dust to go. On the up-side it will keep my media from getting too old and dusty. Because I lose it before that can happen..... Thankfully there's a Harbor Freight store nearby so I can get more beads as needed.

If you soak a motor, just make sure to wash it in clean hot water afterwards, then follow proper electrical winding drying procedure.

Sincerely,
David

[pocket-rocket]

You are indeed correct that it's good at removing surface rust only. It will not replace missing metal or "convert" rust into anything. It removes the rust leaving bare metal. The parts must fit in the container and be fully submerged. It's not for car bodywork.

I wasn't under the impression that it would convert rust, it's the shear rust removal that got my attention.

If I had a part I could let soak over night while I got other stuff done instead of blasting or using my wire wheel I would. Not only that, my big shop vac pulls too much of a vacuum in my blast cabinet and over half my glass bead has gone MIA, lol. Since I discovered that I got some old pantyhose from my wife and put multiple pairs over the vac port of my cabinet to help combat it, along with getting a much smaller vac when I saw them on sale at Lowe's for about $20-25.

The fan motor idea is a really good one. Nothing sucks more than pulling something apart and breaking half of the fasteners.

Thanks for the info :-)

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk

[Purple pit]

I thank you on that, but a turbo is a dream at this point. One day if something fell out of the blue into my lap then.......
I like to everything I can before something is called done, so I understand on the turbo bearings. My failures are do to making things right to the highest point in one area and rushing another. All in the name of getting back lost time. Just a personal hang up I guess(lol).

[davida1_hiwaay_net]

Wow, I'm impressed with the rust remover. Where do you buy it at and how much does it run?

Granted it was surface on the center section, but it still came out looking really good.

It does work well. I got the EvapoRust from Advance Auto, it's about $20 a gallon. I think that's a little high, but as a dipping chemical it lasts a very long time. See This page at Advance Auto.

You are indeed correct that it's good at removing surface rust only. It will not replace missing metal or "convert" rust into anything. It removes the rust leaving bare metal. The parts must fit in the container and be fully submerged. It's not for car bodywork.

One good use of it is dismantling rusted assemblies. Because it will never attack metals or plastics (only rust) you can soak a rusted assembly in it for weeks if needed until the rust is gone and the parts are free. All the plastic and aluminum parts will not be affected at all. I've soaked an electric motor in it for a month so that I could non-destructively disassemble the motor. It was part of an antique fan.

Sincerely,
David

[pocket-rocket]

Wow, I'm impressed with the rust remover. Where do you buy it at and how much does it run?

Granted it was surface on the center section, but it still came out looking really good.

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk

[davida1_hiwaay_net]

If I ever get a turbo can I send it to you? That thing looks brand new.
Great story by the way!

Thanks, I hope it works like brand new! Honestly it worked just fine before. Only worried about the bearings condition.

I pretty well just work on odds and ends projects. Nothing's out of the question though, as far as repairing one for you.

[Purple pit]

If I ever get a turbo can I send it to you? That thing looks brand new.
Great story by the way!