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262's 85 Fiero SE LX9 F23 swap thread lots of pics

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  • are you running meth or something that requires a 2nd fuel table? Also, you are running a variable pressure fuel pump? I haven't had to deal with any of the issues you are having. Dead time I think is .6 - .8 ms for the 28# injectors. I think its mostly for idle quality to fine tune it but being way out is going to make it so you have very little of the valve opening time to be throwing fuel in there. The lower the delay, the better until you tell its faster than it is, and then you lose some fuel capability there as well.

    Im running no correction, no offset table for AFR control. Have you tried that? Im not sure if a turbo fucks with that but NA it has worked great.
    Ben
    60DegreeV6.com
    WOT-Tech.com

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    • The current issue has nothing to do with the delay tables, the method to determine the delays was just a consequence of trying to dial in dead times. I've found multiple sets of data that state what my dead times should be, and for some reason, I'm not having fueling match target AFR in an expected manner. I've attempted to dial in dead times from multiple points on multiple occasions using multiple methods and analysis'. at this point, I know the injectors are 10+ years old, and have absolutely minimal run time, and frequently have had static ethanol fuel in them for months at a time, it's very possible that the injectors dirty, clogged, opening and shutting at different rates, ect. a new set of injectors, with datasheets direct from the manufacturer will hopefully solve all of my current issues, and allow me to make big steps in dialing in closed loop fueling, and a proper VE table that accurately represents the engine's VE.

      the delay table isn't a issue, it's just a feature of the MS3 that I intend to employ. The sole purpose of the 2nd fuel table in my case, is to create data points to use to fill the delay table by creating stepped changes in AFR that can be correlated to a stepped change in PW. once I have enough data to generate a table, it will improve closed loop fueling response, as the MS3 will have a better idea of where to make corrections, and once the table is filled, will revert to one fuel table, unless I later have a need for two. The car is running open loop now, with no correction, longer drives through varying conditions will benefit from closed loop fueling.

      "I am not what you so glibly call to be a civilized man. I have broken with society for reasons which I alone am able to appreciate. I am therefore not subject to it's stupid laws, and I ask you to never allude to them in my presence again."

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      • I think the end result for me is to tune it manually with datalogs so I can find the steady state values rather than a graph of averages or transition numbers using probably bad data for AE and DE. That or have someone tune and someone drive. Auto tune is rough at best from my experience. It should idle great at 14:1 as well.
        Ben
        60DegreeV6.com
        WOT-Tech.com

        Comment


        • my latest tune revision has 14:1 at idle, it sounds pretty gnarly if I lean it out a bit though.

          The new injectors are in, and seem to have made a difference. my fuel pressure is somehow off by about 6 PSI now though... I'll need to adjust it back down before getting too far along with the tune. I checked a log from a couple days ago, it was correct last time I logged the car, I must have done something installing the new injectors.
          "I am not what you so glibly call to be a civilized man. I have broken with society for reasons which I alone am able to appreciate. I am therefore not subject to it's stupid laws, and I ask you to never allude to them in my presence again."

          Comment


          • Finally made it to the track

            First run was about 8 PSI and a lean on the big end, 2nd run was 10 PSI, and closer to a safe AFR. there's still a ton left in it, even at this boost level.



            https://youtu.be/N9kgq1Ecdcg

            https://youtu.be/NnyFvMRTnKo
            "I am not what you so glibly call to be a civilized man. I have broken with society for reasons which I alone am able to appreciate. I am therefore not subject to it's stupid laws, and I ask you to never allude to them in my presence again."

            Comment


            • Didn't know you had video
              Ben
              60DegreeV6.com
              WOT-Tech.com

              Comment


              • Originally posted by SappySE107 View Post
                Didn't know you had video
                I sure did, hopefully my next trip will be a bit more thrilling, there's no way I'll go lean once this is installed:

                originally, I planned on making the bolt ring stay inside the tank and not weld on the tank, I found that making a weld on ring was easier, and probably a better bet. I made the weld on ring, as well as some nickel acetate, after the ring was finished, I dunked it in the acetate, applied a small current, and nickel plated the bare steel to hopefully keep it from rusting.



                I opened the hole up in the top of the tank, and welded it in. The hole was about 135mm



                The new top hat fully machined



                I soldered in the pump discharge tube, and a ground stud that goes all the way through.





                I cut the rest of the parts on the plasma cutter.



                After that, I installed the return, and the all thread that would actually hold the pumps in place, and test fit everything.





                The into the nickel with the top hat, I wasnt' worried about the tubes or all thread, because the tubes are stainless, and the all thread was zinc plated, so both of those should fair ok from a corrosion standpoint without the nickel plating.



                Then I bent the tubes to fit the car.



                I soldered the tubes in, wired everything up, and installed it on the tank. what's left? I have compression fittings for the tubes to adapt them to the rest of the fuel system, I also need to made some blocks to go between the tank and the tubes to adequately support them and not stress the solder joints. I'm planning on moving the flexfuel sensor to be closer to the tank/fuel filter, and not on the fuel rail, as well as installing a set of stainless LX9 fuel rails.



                Parts used:

                https://www.racetronix.biz/p/double-...orb-red/dpc-g6

                https://www.racetronix.biz/p/univers...4-way/bcws-001

                https://www.highflowfuel.com/quantum...eplaces-11569/

                https://www.racetronix.biz/p/connect...6-14ga/rcs-001

                and the appropriate fittings.

                Some notes about the nickel plating, I learned about this through a few youtube videos, Turbo_V6 zinc plated a trigger wheel, while looking for a few other videos on zinc, I found nickel was also doable.

                Turbo_V6's zinc plating video:

                https://youtu.be/O486S9CGhgM

                and a helpful nickle plating video:

                https://youtu.be/1Uy7QkLI8yU

                My results were hit and miss, some parts turned out great, others not so much, I think my acetate may be contaminated with zinc, as some of my parts came out with a very dark finish, and the zinc plated all thread that was exposed to the acetate also turned black. if there's a next time for this, I'll do a few things slightly different:

                1. insulate parts that don't need plating, this should help focus the plating on that parts that need it
                2. attempt to arrange the anode(s) in such a manner that they present themselves to the entire part, or the largest surface area of the part.
                3. increase the number of anodes, so that they surround the part and and more of the part is equidistant to a anode,
                4. install a pump to circulate the acetate, and maybe a small filter to prevent solids that come off the anodes from getting to the part to be plated.
                5. get a parts tumbler to polish small parts prior to plating, I suspect some of my parts may have had surface contaminants which caused discoloration.
                6. acid dip parts prior to plating, which should further help with stripping contaminants.

                I'm confident my parts are now corrosion resistant, as can be seen in one of the pictures of the top hat after soldering in the ground stud and the pump discharge pipe, the flux used to solder the parts in cause the steel to rust very quickly, while soldering in the tubes on the outside of the sender, the top hat did not rust.
                "I am not what you so glibly call to be a civilized man. I have broken with society for reasons which I alone am able to appreciate. I am therefore not subject to it's stupid laws, and I ask you to never allude to them in my presence again."

                Comment


                • Love this kind of stuff. Nice skill set/engineering and the nickle plating rabbit hole is awesome. Probably a stupid question. i can't see your whole pump set up. Do you have some way of preventing the pumps from possibly over time loosening and twisting in their clamp-downs to prevent the plastic outlet(s) from shearing or cracking? Startup torque is surprising to me on those pumps

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                  • I didn't understand the crazy number of holes from the pump setup until I saw you welded in a ring with the threads to screw those all in. Stock is a twist seal setup right? You can tell I do a lot of fuel pumps:P Are there any decent sized fuel cells that would fit your tank location? Im just curious about this amount of work and keeping it internal vs either a custom made fuel cell and an external pump.
                    Ben
                    60DegreeV6.com
                    WOT-Tech.com

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by SappySE107 View Post
                      I didn't understand the crazy number of holes from the pump setup until I saw you welded in a ring with the threads to screw those all in. Stock is a twist seal setup right? You can tell I do a lot of fuel pumps:P Are there any decent sized fuel cells that would fit your tank location? Im just curious about this amount of work and keeping it internal vs either a custom made fuel cell and an external pump.
                      stock uses a locking ring to secure the sender in place, there really aren't many options for a fuel tank other than stock unless I put it somewhere I don't want it, and then have a bunch of dead space under the car too. I prefer in tank pumps for a few reasons, pumps really don't like sucking, and pumps like to be cool. With the pump submerged in fuel, the fuel keeps it cool, and it doesn't have to suck the fuel, because it's surrounded by it.
                      "I am not what you so glibly call to be a civilized man. I have broken with society for reasons which I alone am able to appreciate. I am therefore not subject to it's stupid laws, and I ask you to never allude to them in my presence again."

                      Comment

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