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262's 85 Fiero SE LX9 F23 swap thread lots of pics

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  • ericjon262
    replied
    The wiring to the new fuse panel is terminated, and the wires I had run to the C100 now extend into the front trunk. long term, I'll use these to power high demand loads like the headlights, cooling fan, and intercooler pump, for now, I think I'll cover the ends and leave the fuse in the engine compartment out.



    I also removed the spare tire tub, at one point I installed a crappy remote battery tray in it, but now that I don't have a battery there, I don't want it in there, there's a guy local to me who is trading a stock tub for it, so everything works out well. I'm also getting a "new" set of AC lines from him that I'll install while the tub is out. I also took a minute to open up the HVAC hox and make sure there wasn't any debris in there that would want to catch fire when I power the car back up.

    I also pulled apart another bulkhead passthough and installed it over the wires running through the firewall, it looks much cleaner, and will seal up the giant holes better. they aren't permanent yet, and I don't think I'll use glue to seal them like the factory did, so that if I need to run a new wire I can do so more easily.



    Along with the new AC lines, I picked up a new to me passenger coolant tube, I had cut and welded mine to clear the 88 rear suspension. When I welded it I did a piss poor job and ended up with a leaky mess, so I went the redneck route and JB welded it. Please excuse some of the potato quality pictures...

    The new tube was an 87, so the heater return tapped into the tube and didn't return directly to the engine, with my LX9, I can do the same thing because the engine doesn't use a recirculating cooling system like a Northstar, an LSx engine, or a later model VVT 60V6. Those engine need a dedicated return path or the heater will only work with the thermostat open. The tap for the heater return is on the back of the tube near the engine, which honestly doesn't make much sense to me. I did some calculations and determined the pressure drop across the tube from front to back, not accounting for the bends works out to about 2 PSI, this was assuming a 7500 GPH(125GPM) flowrate (obtained from ASE website linked below) that figure also assumes full flow through the tube, with no flow through the bypass line or heater lines. After seeing the math, I determined that there isn't a reason not to move the nipple forward on the tube to the front crossmember. I already had the front tub out, so I removed the existing tube.

    the new tube is far, old is near



    The heater return nipple



    The proposed new location



    I installed the new tube, set the spare tire tub in, and marked the tube from above through the cowl drain.



    with the tube marked, I pulled the tub and tube, cut the nipple off the back, drilled a hole and welded the tube up front. Somewhere along the line, I misinterpreted my mark, and put the nipple on at an angle that isn't exactly ideal, if I ever need to pull the tube again for some other reason, I'll consider welding it in more vertical like my finger is pointing.





    I then attached a hose, and did another test fit, the hose is close to the spare tire tub, but I don't think it's close enough to warrant cutting it back apart.

    Now, you're probably wondering why go to the trouble? it's now one less line that has to be run underneath the car, I can also repurpose this line for the A2W intercooler which means I would only have to run one new line. it's also a DD friendly weight reduction mod. admittedly, the tube probably doesn't weigh enough to make a huge difference, but every little bit helps right?

    now for the other half of the work, my old tube was mess up because it didn't clear the 88 rear suspension links, can you take a guess what also doesn't clear? yep, the new tube, I figured this would be the case, which is why I was ok with cutting the nipple off of the back of the tube, as I knew I would have to cut and weld the pipe to make it work.

    here's the new pipe prior to any cutting, you can see the bolt for the longitudinal link is right up against the tube...



    I cut the end off, and rotated the whole pipe up so it now make a turn into the wheelwell.



    Next I took a cutting from the old pipe, and added a 90 to the end of the tube, pointing it into the engine bay.



    The final step was to cut the rolled end off of the old pipe, and weld it on so the hose is less likely to fly off under pressure. now everything clears and points enough into the engine bay to make hose installation easy, but not so far that it makes engine removal or installation difficult.



    Now, what if I decide to install a newer engine like an LZ9, with a recirculating cooling system? I came up with a very simple solution, do the came thing I did to the front, to the rear. add a nipple at the water pump suction connection and the heater will again function. the downside to this is that the engine may take slightly longer to warm up based on the much larger volume of cool water in the tube vice a dedicated line. I didn't do any math to prove or disprove this, but I don't think it would be anywhere near large enough of a difference to matter.


    7500 GPH data source. note this describes a typical pump, my LX9 water pump could be more or less, and the number is an exageration either way based on multiple coolant flow paths that don't (didn't) go through the tube like the bypass line and heater core. I suspect this number is higher than the design flow of my LX9's pump.

    http://asecertificationtraining.com/...olant-systems/

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  • ericjon262
    replied
    I got the shift cables in, and a shifter built. in it's current condition, if functions more or less as desired, but the select cable is way to close to the strut tower, I'm going to take it back off and make some adjustments to it to move it off of the strut tower which should improve cable life and shift feel. Note, the "E" clip that holds the select lever in place isn't installed and the lever isn't fully seated in the picture.






    in other news, I'm getting alot closer with the wiring nightmare. It may not look a whole lot different to the untrained eye, but it definitely is a huge improvement over the older stuff I had done, and MIGHT fit behind the console without chopping it up. the engine harness is able to be divorced from the chassis harness via 3 connectors, a 3 pin that holds the reverse light wiring, a 16 pin that holds the power, ground, and switched chassis inputs to the MS3, and a 5 pin connector on the MS3 that houses the CAN bus link.

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  • ericjon262
    replied
    Originally posted by manbearpig View Post
    Please tell me this is still going...
    it's still going, just lots of slow tedious stuff that doesn't warrant pictures and posts.

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  • manbearpig
    replied
    Please tell me this is still going...

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  • ericjon262
    replied
    Originally posted by Vindiktive View Post
    Great build thread! She’s gonna be a beast when finished!
    Thanks! it's been a long time work in progress, I drove it a few years ago with the stock 85 rear suspension and egay turdbo, it was quick and fun, but now I'm really excited by what the new rear suspension, turbo, and other upgrades will offer!

    I did a good bit of work this weekend, but you wouldn't know it by looking at anything... I spent all day friday and saturday painting the new roof, and removing the old one, unfortunately, I cracked my windshield pretty bad, but the plus side of cracking the windshield, I decided that I would remove the cracked windshield to hopefully reduce the cost of replacement, and I found a tiny rust spot that I can fix, that a windshield company would just cover with glue. it's not fixed yet, but it has been thoroughly wire wheeled to remove the existing rust.

    I primered the new roof, and sanded it with 800 grit until I had a uniform finish.



    then I sprayed on the red, it took a ton of paint to do it, but it appears to have turned out ok.



    then I broke out the 1500 grit, and wet sanded the whole roof skin, again, to a uniform finish, this picture was an in progress pic.



    unfortunately, some kind of debris got between the paper and the paint and put some mildly deep scratches in it, they don't show very well in the pictures, but in person, they're clear as day. after wetsanding, I got the buffer out, and buffed it out as best I could, again, it looks way better in pictures than it does in person, but it was also a rattle can job on a $1300 car...



    I set it on the car to get an idea of how close the color matches, and it's pretty darn close, I expected way worse.



    left is new, right is old, right is also dirty and not recently (ever?) buffed.



    On to more important parts of the project!

    I now got back to work on wiring... well, kinda... Since I am going to use a Microsquirt's outputs to run the factory gauge cluster, it meant I needed to mount the Microsquirt somewhere near the cluster... you might be surprised how hard it is to mount an object not much bigger than a cellphone somewhere mostly out of sight, yet still moderately easy to access.

    My first thought was above the gas pedal like this:



    Problem with this location, is the lock on the connector for the Microsquirt is designed in a way that to get to it, I would have to remove the whole unit, and maybe the dash to add or change inputs to the Micro, so I needed something else.

    I came up with this, it mounts the micro near the steering column, with the connector down, and easily accessed.



    The problem with this, is that the wiring would be clearly visible, and possibly intrude into the already crowded footwell... now what??? I trimmed the bulk of the bracket off, and then traced the connector out on the bracket. I then made a large notch, and inverted the Micro... Bingo!



    Now the entire thing fits under the dash, and crappy GM interior plastics in a way that 99% of people won't even know it's there!

    The wiring will be routed through a pocket under the dashboard, here's a shot with the dash removed to show the proposed routing.



    the whole unit is quickly and easily removed by 4 Phillips head screws, and the entire interior intact, making adding inputs to the micro extremely easy compared to the in dash option. The next step is to start terminating wires and get the can buss network setup. I have most of the wires routed, and there's even a power feed available at the mounted location, since my car doesn't have power windows, I can install a fuse in the WDO position in the fuse block, and use that wire to power the micro! I'm excited by the possibilities this brings for me, one of the particular projects I have in mind, is to have new gauge faces made for the "rally gauge pod" I pulled from a junkyard car, and make a stock appearing boost gauge, and maybe a air temp gauge or something for the other one.

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  • Vindiktive
    replied
    Great build thread! She’s gonna be a beast when finished!

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  • manbearpig
    replied
    Originally posted by ericjon262 View Post
    I keep hearing people talk about the miata battery now that I'm doing this. These dyna batts don't have a ton of reserve, so they can be worn down fairly quick by things like the lights or radio on without the engine running.
    I did find this website critisizing the Dyna Batt for its price and lack of information. http://www.stealth316.com/2-dynabatt.htm

    I was unable to find the other brand batteries at the prices that guy listed though.

    Anyway, I don't have a radio or any accessories so I'm not too worried about reserve, just need it to start when it's cold out still.

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  • ericjon262
    replied
    I did a ton of body work today, I got the first coat of paint applied to the decklid, and fixed the A pillar crack again. I didn't grind out the crack deep enough the first time, so this time, I ground it out deeper and wider, and applied the epoxy SMC filler to both sides, the area now feels like it's ready for little boy or fat man...

    The new decklid was off of a 2M4, I scrapped the decals off, but the letters remained, it's amazing how the decals protect the paint to the degree that the paint it thicker under it to the degree that it needs to be sanded off. Another fun fact, gold fiero paint turns silver somehow...



    Here you can see the crack came back...



    The new surface is much nicer, but still needs a ton of work to be perfect, and I would like to make it as close to perfect as I can, so I don't have to do this again later.



    a close up of some of the imperfections I need to fill and sand out still.



    Here's the decklid in primer



    and here's the first coat of red. I plan to lightly sand it with 600 grit tomorrow, and throw on at least one more coat.



    I am however, starting to wish I had bought a gun and shot it with some good single stage, I think it would have been cheaper to do it that way, and damn sure faster.

    Leave a comment:


  • ericjon262
    replied
    Originally posted by manbearpig View Post
    Dang, I think I'm going with that battery over the Miata battery I had planned on.
    I keep hearing people talk about the miata battery now that I'm doing this. These dyna batts don't have a ton of reserve, so they can be worn down fairly quick by things like the lights or radio on without the engine running.

    been a week since the last update... I've been hard at work on several avenues to get things back together.

    I ripped apart the interior, and pulled the instrument cluster and dash out, and I picked up a microsquirt, which I am going to link to the MS3 Pro Via can bus, and use it to control the instrument cluster, thereby eliminating the need for separate, and redundant wiring in the car. I'll also use the microquirt to control the cooling fan relay, intercooler pump relay, and idiot lights. provided I have enough outputs capable.

    in other less important, to most, but very important to me news, I hooked up with a guy local to me and I was able to acquire a nicer decklid, and while I was at it, I also picked up a hardtop roof, headliner, CHMSL, and an 87+ fuel tank expansion tank. the new roof was in pretty bad shape, but it was complete, and I decided I'd take a crack at it while the rest of the interior was out of the car. why put a new roof on? My car was a hardtop from the factory, and not that I care in any way about the car being original, the PO's cut a hole in the roof and installed a crappy sunroof that has leaked ever since I bought the car, and it's just plain ugly, so I figure that while I have the interior apart, it's easy to access the bolts to remove the roof, so I might as well get it done while the parts are available, and it's relatively easy. I'll also be installing a CHMSL, my car, being an '85, didn't have one factory, I'm hoping there's a spot for it in the space frame, as they add a nice bit of visibility, to the car, which helps add a safety factor.


    The new roof skin was pretty gnarly...





    and a small crack developed while removing it...




    I sanded it down and cleaned it up as best as I could, I also roughed up the surfaces that needed filler, and applied SMC filler to clean up the damage. I still need to do a little more on the A pillars.











    The decklid was in much better shape, but the paint was trash, so I sanded almost all of it off. I'm hoping to get it in primer tomorrow mid morning.



    I picked up a can of this, which appears to be a very close match to my car, it's more than close enough.





    I also cleaned up the headliner board, it had a bunch of moldy looking fuzz on it, so I used a wire brush to gently knock it off. I'll get some fiberglass resin and coat the whole thing to make it a bit more rigid, then I'll glue on new headliner material, which will make the interior of the car so much nicer.





    I need to do some light repair work around the visor mounts, but I think I can handle it without too much effort.





    other than that, I've been working on wiring, slowly but surely it's getting done.




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  • manbearpig
    replied
    Dang, I think I'm going with that battery over the Miata battery I had planned on.

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  • ericjon262
    replied
    not much fun stuff to post, I'm waiting on bunch of parts, Shift and select cables, intercooler, boost piping, BOV, exhaust tubing, and a bunch of other stuff, is all on order.

    I chewed away at the wiring harness a bit, mounted the battery, and started on the downpipe.

    I knew these were small, but I didn't realize they were that small... !



    I picked up one of their battery boxes as well, I mounted it to the firewall using four M8 bolts, welded to two pieces of sheet metal. the sheet metal is held in place by a marine grade sealant. there was already a hole in the firewall near placement I desired , so I enlarged it for the M8 bolt, and made 3 more, I wish I had given it a tad more thought before drilling because I ended up drilling into one of the interior clip holders on the firewall. it should still function I think, so I guess it's fine.





    I'm thinking I might drill and countersink the inside of the battery box, and mount the power distribution hub to the box. in this configuration, it will be upside down, but I think I'm OK with that, I plan to also make a splash shield as well.



    here's a picture of the downpipe progress.



    Hopefully, when I get off work in tomorrow, I can get the mounts for the DBWX2 and the MS3 mount done.

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  • ericjon262
    replied
    Conversation on another forum spurred some more analysis.

    Originally, I centered the cable in the range of motion, this resulted in the cable moving different amounts left and right. due to the extension of the cable. to quickly and and easily equalize the angle, I took my drawing and drew two lines, one from the 2/4/R position, one from the neutral position, as these two positions will generate the maximum change in angle. these lines extend from there, to the plane where I intend to mount the cables, but at the opposing point.



    The intersection of these points is where the cable is centered in the motion, but it needs to be moved out to the plane of the cable mounting point. adding another line, perpendicular to the plane of the mount, from that point, to the plane of the mount gives up the position we need.



    we can then verify that, by drawing lines from that point, to the neutral and 2/4/R points, and compare their angles to the line we drew perpendicular to the mount plane.



    Now we have validated the point is in the correct position, we can measure the position of the cable mount relative to the centerline of the shift shaft.



    this works out to 2.24 inches left of the shift shaft, at about 3.98 inches away. I believe this position should provide the smoothest motion, without binding, and the longest service life of the cable.

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  • ericjon262
    replied
    I ordered an intercooler today, along with most of the parts required to get it installed on the car. I also ordered the battery, battery box, and Blue Sea Systems Safety Hub 150 power distribution panel. I'm hoping to be done with the wiring by the end of the weekend, but that will firmly depend on the required parts arriving. I still need to order a blow off valve...

    In other news, more shifter work, I started working on trying to nail down the shift and select cable length, which entails quite a bit of work to do and getting the length right is especially important if you don't plan to use an off the shelf cable, so how do you ensure your cables are the right length to work as required? Make a set!

    Here's what I did, I bought some cheap polyethylene tubing, 3/8" OD, 1/4" ID, some compression fittings, some 1/2" fender washers, and some steel cable (don't need steel, but I had it sitting around, so I used it...)

    The compression fittings have an internal support, I threw them away, I don't need them



    take the tube nuts off



    put a washer and tube nut back on.



    now, using another washer and tube nut, install the fitting on the shifter, it's not a perfect fit, but will allow you to get close enough for you to be able to make a reasonable measurement.



    now install the tubing in the fitting, and route it as you want the shift cables to be routed.



    next you can feed the cable into the tubing



    clamp some ring terminals on the end, and now you have some stand ins for your actual cables.



    now you can route the cables in the engine compartment, and nail down the exact length, without any guesswork



    I'm still not done though, because the cables travel linearly, and the shift linkages travel in an arc, the cable ends must be able to also move through multiple angles. so I'm waiting to hear back from California Push-Pull about exactly how much angle the cable ends can take, in the meantime, I got into my cad program, and drew up a few things to determine the angle of attack of the cables



    The circle on the right represents the radius of the travel path of the select arm, the circle on the right is for the shift arm, because the shift arm travels through multiple planes, it needs to be analyzed in multiple views, the box on the far left represents the motion of the shift arm as it is raised, lowered, and pulled front to rear.

    in any case, moving the cable sheath closer to the arm exaggerates the angles, and further away reduces them. ideally, the cable housing will be mounted as far as possible from the arm, to generate as close to linear motion as possible. In the case of the select motion, which has a very short travel, and only travels in a single axis. it's pretty easy to make it work. In the drawing, the select cable is assumed to be mounted approximately 2.5" from neutral, and this results in a deviation from level of less than 1.05 degrees in either direction, or a total deviation of less than 2.1 degrees.

    Because the shift arm moves both up and down, and forward and back, it experiences more drastic angular changes, in the above drawing, the cable housing is approximately 5" from neutral, the deviation from linear viewed from above is about 1.23 degrees left, and about 1.03 degrees right, for a total deviation of about 2.26 degrees, I think the cables should be able to handle this ok.

    Now lets analyze the side view:

    in this case, we end up with a deviation from neutral of 2.82 degrees up and down, yielding a total deviation of about 5.6 degrees. depending on the cable end design, I think this shouldn't be a problem, but before I nail it down, I want to hear back from CPP.

    Now, what do we do if 5.6 degrees is too much? the way I see it, there are two options, move the mount further away, which will reduce the angular deviation. by going another inch out, we bring the deviation down to 4.5 degrees, 2" brings us to 3.75 degrees. the method works, but takes up more and more space the may be otherwise needed, or unavailable.

    So what do we do if we can't do that? the next option I have considered, was to use a rod end as the cable mount, which will allow for the cable to adjust to the required angle, without affecting the ability of the cable to push or pull the shift mechanism. there's also the option of a combination of the two above options as well.

    I don't expect to hear back from CPP until friday at the earliest, but I plan to call them Friday whether the email me back or not.

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  • ericjon262
    replied
    Originally posted by manbearpig View Post
    Yea, some of the connectors/pins on the dash harness are weird. I rewired my truck to remove the BCM, now I need to make a new harness to get rid of all of the butt splices I put in. Trying to find pin extractors, pins, connector housings, is there a site that explains all of these things? For some reason I'm lost. I know Molex, Amp, Weidmuller, etc. connectors, not GM.
    Honestly, I go by picture, and figure it out. most GM stuff newer than about 2004 or so it Delphi GT, I like the GT line WAY better than the AMPseal connectors used on the MS3 pro, those are a royal PITA to repin...

    I was up until about 3 am working on the wiring yesterday, so when I woke up this morning, I decided I needed a break from it, I was able to get a spindle made for the shifter, it required a little bit more clearance, as my machinist wasn't able to make the top part in the abnormal shape in the amount of time I had to wait.









    I cut a new baseplate out of thicker material, I needed to get the fulcrum slightly higher than it was, and I also wanted to make sure the entire assembly was extremely rigid. most of the material will be cut away once the shift cables have been mounted, so the assembly won't be much heavier, but much more rigid.



    With the fulcrum in place, it was time to put something together to test the mechanism this required me to drill the hole in the spindle for the roll pin to hold it to the shift shaft. the hole was very tricky to get right, in reality, it's slightly off, but more than close enough to work. the mechanism operates almost flawlessly, once the roll pin is installed instead of the loose fitting bolt, most of the slop will go away. unfortunately, because I'm an idiot, I had the hole in the bottom of the spindle cut too big by about 0.5mm, I think I can solve this by having a thin bushing turned, and then inserted into the spindle.



    I then made the shift arm, it's made from the same material as the base, and should be very strong, it's welded directly to the spindle. the shifter is now complete, with the exception of the cable mounts, I'm going to measure for them tomorrow when I get off work, and then try and see how to get them ordered from california push-pull.








    Other than that, yesterday, I spent all day working on the harness, eventually, I took it almost completely apart, and rerouted and untangled about 60% of the harness. I took a ton of pictures, and then when I looked at them all, I realized they looked the exact same as before... DOH. I know the diffeence though, so that's what matters.

    I talked to Fieroguru about the Dyna batt, he said he liked it, but also carried a Li+ jump pack just in case, I'm probably going to order one, and some of the other electrical stuff on wednesday. I hope I can keep this pace up, it'll be nice to see the car not on jackstands.

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  • manbearpig
    replied
    Yea, some of the connectors/pins on the dash harness are weird. I rewired my truck to remove the BCM, now I need to make a new harness to get rid of all of the butt splices I put in. Trying to find pin extractors, pins, connector housings, is there a site that explains all of these things? For some reason I'm lost. I know Molex, Amp, Weidmuller, etc. connectors, not GM.

    Leave a comment:

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