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Little Thumper Install Crank Sensor Issues

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  • Little Thumper Install Crank Sensor Issues

    Little bit of a background the car is a 04 cavalier lss with a 06 g6 3500. The motor, harness and pcm was previously swapped into a 99 sunfire. Motor, harness and trans was pulled from the sunfire where goodies were added. While it was in the sunfire it ran perfectly fine no code at all and used the 3500 cam sensor with 05 injectors/rail and 05 gagt bin file which was tuned of course. I'll give a list of what was changed below.

    What was changed:
    • Wot-tech little thumper cam
    • Arp head studs
    • 99 below cyro-treated timing set
    • Comp Cam Drop in valve springs (Would have to look to see which)
    • 36lb gtp injectors

    Upon getting it running right on first start was a 24x crank sensor code. Thought it was the wiring which all checked out clear to the pcm, pulses as it should at pcm and all that good stuff. Switched out the cam sensor for a new 05 gagt crank sensor since was using the 3500 one, switched 24x out for a new 05 gagt sensor. Same code and same problem.

    Did some testing again and with the 24x sensor the knock sensor will not work at all. Sets on 0 degrees of retard no matter what I raised the timing to. Unplugged cam sensor and knock sensor worked and the 24x sensor code disappeared. Which leads me to believe either using the wrong cam sensor, being the cam is ground with 1 degree of advance the cam lobe is also at that spec throwing the relation off between the crank sensor. Or really I have no idea but hard to tune it with the issue. So looking for thoughts as to the issue but did check the crank sensor ring and it also looks fine to me.

  • #2
    You need to do a CASE relearn, most likely. Requires a GM tech2 or there are some "turn on the key, wait twenty seven seconds, turn the key off three times, then back on and roll the driver's window down and start" methods out there on the web.


    • #3
      Um how will that help lol. Crank relearn doesn't need done on 05 osids as is self learning, not to mention no need to do with when have no code for it. To add to that I thought everyone knew if you have a cam or 24x sensor code the relearn won't work any way. Though figured out the cam sensor pad is clear different from the 05s. Assume it's ground for a 99 below sensor.


      • #4
        Btw relearn can be done with a tech2, hptuners or dhp which I have all 3 but won't fix a cam or crank sensor code.


        • #5
          Guess the crank sensor code you're getting couldn't possibly be a crankshaft angular sensor error, could it? Nah, CASE is just a word...can't possibly be a shortened form of anything.

          Your crank is not timed properly to the camshaft. It could be within the allowable error range, in which a relearn would fix it, or it could not be inside the allowable range, which would mean you either re-time your cam because it's timed wrong, or disable the camshaft angle sensor...both will solve your error code.


          • #6
            First off you may want to read and actually have a clue as to the issue before arguing. The code is for the 24x sensor p0366 to be exact. You can not do a relearn with any 24x or cam sensor code unless it goes off clearing it. Clear it and right back on in less then a sec, clear it on start the same exact thing.

            So no a relearn will not fix it and as I said I already figured out the cps pad is clear wrong for the sensor any way. To also add the 05 impala bin and 05 grand am bin this car has ran on for 4 years has never set a relearn code or crank sensor issue. It ran the 3400 and 3500 fine which as I said learns itself. The issue only happened with the cam swap.

            Also cam isn't timed wrong as it was degreed, turning the cam sensor off won't fix a damn thing either. As you clearly failed reading as I don't have a cam sensor code, I have a 24x code which some know controls sfi. With the code the knock sensor won't work, UNPLUG THE CAM SENSOR all is fine no idiot codes at all with the exception of the knock sensor going straight to two degrees of retard no matter the afr or timing commanded.

            With that said if you can't read, have no idea what your talking about and want to argue about a issue I don't even have then don't comment.


            • #7
              Here is straight from the service manual from gm so enlighten yourself:

              CKP System Variation Learn Procedure
              Install a scan tool.
              Monitor the powertrain control module (PCM) for DTCs with a scan tool. If other DTCs are set, except DTC P0315, refer to Diagnostic Trouble Code (DTC) List - Vehicle in Vehicle DTC Information for the applicable DTC.
              Select the crankshaft position variation learn procedure with a scan tool.
              The scan tool instructs you to perform the following:
              Accelerate to wide open throttle (WOT).
              Release the throttle when fuel cut-off occurs.
              Observe the fuel cut-off specifications for the applicable engine.
              The engine should not accelerate beyond the calibrated RPM value.
              Release the throttle immediately if the value is exceeded.
              Block the drive wheels.
              Set the parking brake.
              DO NOT apply the brake pedal.
              Cycle the ignition from OFF to ON.
              Apply and hold the brake pedal.
              Start and idle the engine.
              Turn the A/C OFF.
              The vehicle must remain in Park or Neutral.
              The scan tool monitors certain component signals to determine if all the conditions are met to continue with the procedure. The scan tool only displays the condition that inhibits the procedure. The scan tool monitors the following components:
              Crankshaft position (CKP) sensors activity--If there is a CKP sensor condition, refer to the applicable DTC.
              Camshaft position (CMP) signal activity--If there is a CMP signal condition, refer to the applicable DTC.
              Engine coolant temperature (ECT)--If the engine coolant temperature is not warm enough, idle the engine until the engine coolant temperature reaches the correct temperature.
              Enable the crankshaft position system variation learn procedure with the scan tool and perform the following:

              While the learn procedure is in progress, release the throttle immediately when the engine starts to decelerate. The engine control is returned to the operator and the engine responds to throttle position after the learn procedure is complete.

              Accelerate to WOT.
              Release when fuel cut-off occurs.
              Test in progress.
              The scan tool displays Learn Status: Learned this ignition. If the scan tool indicates that DTC P0315 ran and passed, the CKP variation learn procedure is complete. If the scan tool indicates DTC P0315 failed or did not run, refer to DTC P0315. If any other DTCs set, refer to Diagnostic Trouble Code (DTC) List - Vehicle in Vehicle DTC Information for the applicable DTC.
              Turn OFF the ignition for 30 seconds after the learn procedure is completed successfully.
              The CKP system variation learn procedure is also required when the following service procedures have been performed, regardless of whether DTC P0315 is set.

              Engine replacement
              PCM replacement
              A harmonic balancer replacement
              Crankshaft replacement
              CKP sensor replacement
              Any engine repairs which disturb the crankshaft to CKP sensor relationship.


              • #8
                Does it run well, in spite of setting the code?
                1999 GLS MP90 supercharged / 2003 GL MP62 supercharged / 2004 GLS stock
                Magnuson MP90 / TOG's / 3 in. Magnaflow exhaust / MSD ignition / LS1 MAF / Racetronix pump / HP Tuners / TCE 68mm TB / 36 lb Inj
                = Best track time: 12.951 @ 104.48, 1.839 60 ft. (Beech Bend Raceway Park, 11-23-13), 50 Deg. F


                • #9
                  Now with that said as far as I'm aware the cps sensor has to match the cps lobe used. The sensor then outputs the same signal for all the different cps sensors where the pcm will not care. The stock 3500 and 3400 cam (specifically the 05 3400) uses a half circle lobe for the cps. The comp grind uses a rectangle roughly a 1/4 wide for the cps. I don't have a good pic of the stock cam unless I go snap one but here is two that should show the difference. Which if read wrong or not at all would explain why unplugging the cps rids the issue. Where I assume the small rectangle lobe is for the the older cps that looks like a tube of lipstick with a harness off it.

                  Sorry if pics are huge

                  Last edited by 2fast4u88; 11-15-2015, 08:17 PM.


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by AleroB888 View Post
                    Does it run well, in spite of setting the code?
                    Truthfully it's hard to tell as the car is heavier now then before in the car that was lighter stock cam. I've dialed in idle pretty good, raised the idle timing, had to mess with the overspeed and underspeed timing, injector size switched. Pe is around 12.5 with stock 05 regular timing. It seems to run decent or pretty good, fires first try, catches idle, idle is steady from 800-875 with commanded of 825. It's getting 26mpg mainly pure city 0-40mph.

                    O I had to adjust the o2 switch points as well but besides the point, this is with the crank sensor code set. Unplug the sensor and pulls timing no matter of timing commanded which runs like crap. If you have Facebook I can upload a new video of it to the 60degreev6 group. Or upload one to YouTube if you would like.


                    • #11
                      I've never had issues with the sensor/lobe combination used. I've used various sensors with cam sensor lobe designs and never saw this code before,they should all be/have a rising edge at the same point since it's only a hall effect sensor.

                      I would try to do the case relearn if you have the ability. I know I can do it with my DHP Powrtuner but not sure if HPTuners supports it or not. As noted the only other thing I can think of would be how you timed the cam to the crank, but since you have a stock timing set I can't imagine you timed it any other way than straight up. The TCE sets offer a few advance and retard settings right on the crank gear.

                      From what I was told the 24x sensor deals with higher resolution for spark timing and it was the Cam sensor that delt with the SFI function... But that could be incorrect, I did not read that directly from any manual.

                      Got Lope?
                      3500 Build, Comp XFI Cam 218/230 .050 dur .570/.568 lift 113LSA
                      Fully Balanced, Ported, 3 Angle Valve Job, 65mm TCE TB, S&S Headers.
                      Stage-1 Raybestos/Alto 4t60e-HD, EP LSD, 3.69FDR
                      12.61@105 Epping NH Oct 2015 Nitrous 100shot (melted plugs) 13.58@98.8 N/A 3200LBS


                      • #12
                        24x is sfi, can't for a relearn and the cam lobe is physically clear different. Actually 24x is sfi, cam sensor is for missfire detection but also to make sure the 24x is in sync. You can't perform a relearn with any crank or cam sensor codes. As will state not ready, the stock 05 3400 cam and 06 3500 cam lobe is a half a circle literally. The lobe on this cam is a 1/4 as wide and is the only conclusion I can come to.

                        Car runs obd2, tinytuner edited bin, played with using hptuners and dhp. Never had this issue till the cam was swapped. Where wiring checks out, 12 volts and all. Runs fine just no sfi though unless I Unplug the cam sensor but goes to pull 2 degrees of retard no matter of commanded soon as you hit 5% throttle. I know the cam sensor wiring is bad for falling apart crossing the wires. Where that was fixed last year and I had the harness apart for it to be fine.
                        Last edited by 2fast4u88; 11-18-2015, 12:14 PM.


                        • #13
                          I don't know the PCM computers very well, but I have heard of and seen some unusual problems with them. For instance, a MAF code set when the problem was a crank sensor; or a 5-volt line code set when the problem was a bad TPS, with no code set for TPS.

                          In the case of adding headers, I got O2 sensor codes set, mostly due to less heat in the system (3 inch CAT, etc.). In the end, the only option there was to change the DTC error status, since it was obviously running well performance-wise.

                          Probably not easy to do, but taking a look at the cam sensor output on an o-scope with the new cam, then comparing that to a vehicle with the stock cam in it, might reveal the difference. Then, you already know the options-- intercept and modify the signal to conform to stock, change the PCM to accept the new cam's signal, or somehow modify the cam..... sounds great in theory, doesn't it, lol
                          1999 GLS MP90 supercharged / 2003 GL MP62 supercharged / 2004 GLS stock
                          Magnuson MP90 / TOG's / 3 in. Magnaflow exhaust / MSD ignition / LS1 MAF / Racetronix pump / HP Tuners / TCE 68mm TB / 36 lb Inj
                          = Best track time: 12.951 @ 104.48, 1.839 60 ft. (Beech Bend Raceway Park, 11-23-13), 50 Deg. F


                          • #14
                            All the sensors function identical, with the wire length and connector being the factor for each application. The cam is compatible with every year 60V6 SFI pushrod engine excluding the VVT pushrod engines.


                            • #15
                              Both cranks was verified on the tech2, as I said only the issue is when the cam sensor is plugged up will the knock sensor not work one bit. To be honest it's unplugged now just to see if would throw a code which I know it does if unplugged. But with the 24x code it doesn't set one for it at all. Unplug the cam sensor and does. Wiring wasn't changed at all and previously was swapped for 40k without a hitch.

                              Verified ring didn't move on the balancer to another stock, verified 5volt reference and 12 volt reference. Replaced all three sensors with 05s and same thing. Also the 99 below cam sensor is longer as far as I can tell. It's something in relation to the cam or cps.