Atomizing fuel with piezo transducers

[TGP37]

Impeding flow would be the next problem. As well as a potential vacuum leak. And it has to be impervious to fuel and any type of hydrocarbon and oil and possibly water.

The second idea, which uses an internal sound source would solve those issues.

reminds me of what i want to call a pulse jet?

Not a ram jet, I actually built one of those...really simple. Mine had a valve instead of the valveless.

Here is a quick diagram explaining what I am thinking.



The whistler is like this NERF Football whistler piece but uses steel instead and is scaled to size for optimal frequency. If they get small enough, many of them in a ring around the runner interior walls would compensate for size.

[pocket-rocket]

The problem you run into with that is my football whistles at a higher pitch the harder/faster its thrown.

Sent from my Sony Tablet S using Tapatalk

[TGP37]

The problem you run into with that is my football whistles at a higher pitch the harder/faster its thrown.

Sent from my Sony Tablet S using Tapatalk

If it was tuned for the best frequency at idle, it would work at idle saving fuel. The frequency would just rise at wot beyond effective range, maybe dogs will hate it, lol.

Or the atomizing effect drops off with a bell curve large enough to accomodate some benefits.

Or have dozens at different pitches so atleast one is at optimal range, a slurry of sound....lol (that might sound awefully annoying)

[pocket-rocket]

But 22khz+ is beyond human hearing range (20Hz-20kHz).

[robertisaar]

i think it would be more accurate to say the average person's hearing range. i know i can hear 20KHz tones quite clearly when i generate them on my laptop. makes the dogs stop whatever they're doing as well.

[TGP37]

But 22khz+ is beyond human hearing range (20Hz-20kHz).

Even better, a silent fuel atomizing technology

i think it would be more accurate to say the average person's hearing range. i know i can hear 20KHz tones quite clearly when i generate them on my laptop. makes the dogs stop whatever they're doing as well.

I think kids can hear up to 24 Khz in some cases. I know there is a pitch only teenagers or younger can hear. Once your in the 20's and up, can't hear it anymore.

[AleroB888]

Interesting stuff! I was an audio tech many years ago, I used piezo tweets in arrays to get high freqs on the cheap in one installation. The higher the Hz, the more the dispersion pattern narrows into a beam, etc. I'm sure you know the basic principles and all that. I didn't see if you mentioned it already, but how about using the principle for alc injection? Pressurize the reservoir with boost pressure and nudge the liquid onto a plate connected to the transducers, only a very small pump would be needed. I still have my Heath tone generator from the 70's, it can output to an exact freq, for example 21.48 kHz, continuously variable. I still build speakers once in a while. But I love to see stuff built where you gotta say, How the hell did they do that?

[Joseph Upson]

It's all an interesting idea/science but the stock level atomization provided by current port fuel injected systems is pretty much the ceiling of benefits to be had from it and not much if anymore can be gained from further atomization. Recently I was researching something associated with fueling and ran across a discussion on test results involving running higher fuel pressure for above stock atomization tested on a dyno from what I recall and there was no appreciable difference gained.

When you consider the less efficient low pressure TBI system used on the 2.5L Fiero still achieved in excess of 30 mpg for some of the cars and the 2.8L port injected motor rarely did running 3 times the fuel pressure with only slightly more displacement and better gearing in the auto trans (~: 3.03 FD vs 3.33 and 1500 stall vs 2000 stall converter). It's not an apples to apples comparison but close enough to consider.

robertissar be careful with those frequencies getting your dogs attention, I remember seeing an elephant attack on television apparently provoked by irritating high frequencies from the mic the host standing next to the elephant was using. He was mad and probably would have killed the guy had he not fallen into the moat if I recall correctly.

[robertisaar]

i don't do it often(or much anymore at all), just a curiosity to see if my laptop's built in speakers could produce that frequency.

[pocket-rocket]

I can hear just past 20k as well, depending on the volume and which ear. My right is the worst of my ears thanks to the Polk tweeters in the door pillars on the 92...

I have a dog whistle app on my phone, but my dog looks at me with the "just what do you think you are doing" look when I hold the phone up to him. I don't believe my phones speaker can go past around 21kHz.

I have a tone generator as well. It does square, saw tooth and sine waves. It's variable, but it's a dial, not digital, so no telling how accurate the old thing is.

http://www.quietelectronics.com/Missouri-/Used-/Bk-precision-3020-sweep-function-generator.aspx

[TGP37]

That's a neat toy there Pocket Rocket. Analog wave generators are always superior since digital needs to digitalize the wave. Just finding a very precise tone may be harder. But if your bringing down bridges, it will do, lol.

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Wave generator software is out there, I've used it before. Just plug into the line out jack. The one I used had all the wave forms and other technical settings...forget the name.

I've read how water vapor will condense with increases in pressure. Seems logical fuel vapor would do the same when compressed in the cylinder. I suppose that is why additional atomization doesn't do much as it will condense in compression anyways.

If that is the case, adding a "whistler" at the edge of the quenching space may encourage re-atomization under compression. Probably combating the condensation during pressure rise. Or the implied frequency is strong enough to reverberate in the cylinder reducing the condensation. A ring of whistlers at the edge of quench might provide additional turbulence as well.

[Futures Passed]

It seems like the most efficient way to atomize fuel that way would to have fuel injectors with tips that naturally vibrate at that frequency due to the fuel passing through them, that way there aren't any extra components in the intake. It also seems like anything else would get gummed up with carbon (assuming EGR is present) after a while.

[AleroB888]

It seems like the most efficient way to atomize fuel that way would to have fuel injectors with tips that naturally vibrate at that frequency due to the fuel passing through them, that way there aren't any extra components in the intake. It also seems like anything else would get gummed up with carbon (assuming EGR is present) after a while.

Dunno if the velocity of the liquid fuel could be driven high enough. The tips are sized for flow rate, too, so several tips or more injectors might be needed. But to design a reed fuel injector would be cool. Hurry up and patent it! The present flow patterns look a bit like diffractive effects of light through a pinhole:

[TGP37]

Interesting, the reed fuel injector.

I also considered having the edges of the quench region modified to produce a sound wave when compressed into the dish of the piston. Suppose it may help to keep fuel droplets from condensing under pressure. But sharp edges can cause detonation.

I'm thinking the entire intake system can be under the frequency needed by having 1 strong piezo in the plenum. The sound waves would naturally travel down the runners and into the chamber with the valve open.

And of course there is the standing wave phenomenon where the pulsing of +/- pressure zones oscillate in the same spot. Shifting one of the frequencies slightly in the right direction would cause the standing wave to move in one direction. It can be tuned to travel a little faster then the intake air charges velocity. Becoming a slight enhancement for velocity.

AND, did you guys ever hear of this? Induction heating

Could be an alternative to enhance fuel vaporization. Water and fuel is more conductive then casual air we breath. If the high freq induction heating method works on fuel more then the air, then it could "wireless" heat the fuel and not the air.

[AleroB888]

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AND, did you guys ever hear of this? Induction heating

Could be an alternative to enhance fuel vaporization. Water and fuel is more conductive then casual air we breath. If the high freq induction heating method works on fuel more then the air, then it could "wireless" heat the fuel and not the air.

Isn't that one of Tesla's ? I think he gave it to Mark Twain as a cigar lighter..

Basically, designs an iron-core choke the "wrong way" and makes use of the heat

http://books.google.com/books?id=s_i...20heat&f=false

But I think it would be too slow to heat up and probably too large a device would be needed to generate the heat, to a pinpoint at that.

Now I'm interested in a device that extracts and removes heat ( i.e. refrigerates), this one (vortex tube) requires compressed air:



I tried to build one years ago, without success

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vortex_tube