Water/Meth Injection Questions

[Schmieder]

What kind of boost levels could I safely push on a 3100 using the H20/Meth Injection?

Stock and/or Hypereutectics, stock rods and crank, t04e .50/.63.

Seeing as it cools the intake charge, reduces heat, increases octane and keeps things running cooler in general I should be able to push more boost safely.

So far, with a modest diy tune I can run 8 psi just fine. I also have a smaller sized intercooler and a B&M Oil cooler to cool the turbo housing some.

I'm guessing I could probably safely push 10-12 psi boost w/ a proper injection system and a good tune.

Anyone have experience regarding H20/Meth Injection Systems on our GMv6 3100?

It seems like a worthy addition to a street performer turbo. Could be great for Hyper-U pistons protecting from detonation and reducing heat.

I am seriously considering building my own or buying a good kit.

[AleroB888]

The details on how and why it works are somewhat disputed, but here's a thread:

http://60degreev6.com/forum/showthre...anol-Injection

[Schmieder]

The details on how and why it works are somewhat disputed, but here's a thread:

http://60degreev6.com/forum/showthre...anol-Injection

Thank you buddy. That thread is just what I needed to read.

You know, I wonder how effective the cooling would be if water mist was sprayed over the external grill of an intercooler? The action of evaportation occuring as the vapor/air is passing over the intercooler should cool the aluminum well enough. The vapor evaporating off the aluminum, and evap occuring just next to the intercooler should still reduce local environment temps, no matter how fast the air flow is....as long as the water vapor is sprayed over the intercooler heat reduction would occur.

And this can be done w/o introducing moisture into the intake air charge. But may be wildy inefficient. Not sure if the added water weight would benefit the increases under such inefficient use.

The vapor charge should be guided to the under side to prevent wetting engine parts. Probably has been tried before...but it is an interesting idea.

Any input?

[Joseph Upson]

At a race track great. Daily driving you'll probably be filling the water bottle daily and from what I've read water spray over the intercooler core is not all that significant considering you'll only get about 1% increase in efficiency for every 10 deg inlet temp drop. You would have to cool the water significantly below ambient to make it worthwhile.

The new trend is pre turbo water/meth injection, which has been proving so effective cooling the air as it's being compressed that some turbo car owners are able to run without an intercooler. Then they benefit from the antidetonation properties with a second nozzle in the traditional configuration after the turbo.

[Z26-T]

"I've heard" that the new Evo's have a mist sprayer on their intercoolers from the factory... But like Joseph said the increase wouldn't be as worth while as actually injecting it into the intake system. It's a great thing if you do it right. Obivously if you inject too much water you'll hydrolock it and bend stuff-but pretty sure that's a good amount of fluid-.

So Joseph, what about pre turbo injection, intercooler, post intercooler injection? I'm assuming most of the vapor from the pre turbo injection would condense in the intercooler?

[Joseph Upson]

So Joseph, what about pre turbo injection, intercooler, post intercooler injection? I'm assuming most of the vapor from the pre turbo injection would condense in the intercooler?

No, except where too much is sprayed to begin with from what I've read and that quantity would probably be enough to damage the compressor. That's why the traditional benefit with a second nozzle further down stream for spray into the intake is still warranted. Some these guys are now able to remove their intercoolers using pre turbo injection as they are more a hindrance than a help after the fact. More than once I've read of some getting lower than ambient temps exited the turbo, if that's true the intercooler is counter productive by adding heat to the air as it can not cool below ambient and causing a restriction to airflow.

I will not know the actual benefit until I try it myself which I hope to have done by the end of this month, as very few people who are praising it in practice are taking the time to post hard data. Telling me what you've gained in power is not as helpful as telling me what your before and after inlet temps are.

[Schmieder]

No, except where too much is sprayed to begin with from what I've read and that quantity would probably be enough to damage the compressor. That's why the traditional benefit with a second nozzle further down stream for spray into the intake is still warranted. Some these guys are now able to remove their intercoolers using pre turbo injection as they are more a hindrance than a help after the fact. More than once I've read of some getting lower than ambient temps exited the turbo, if that's true the intercooler is counter productive by adding heat to the air as it can not cool below ambient and causing a restriction to airflow.

I will not know the actual benefit until I try it myself which I hope to have done by the end of this month, as very few people who are praising it in practice are taking the time to post hard data. Telling me what you've gained in power is not as helpful as telling me what your before and after inlet temps are.

If/when I decide to install a water/meth injection I will probably try the pre-compressor trick you speak of. I can scan (hp scan/tune) so I will definately post up what it has done for my intake temps.

Thanks, your input is appreciated.

[FallenZ24]

I've been thinking about building a meth/water kit for my Fiero. Im not intercooled and have always wanted to spray pre-turbo. My only concern is my vented BOV releasing a mist of alcohol into a hot engine bay and igniting. I guess I will just recirculate it, but that kinda kills the fun of a turbo car.

JoeCooley

[Joseph Upson]

I've been thinking about building a meth/water kit for my Fiero. Im not intercooled and have always wanted to spray pre-turbo. My only concern is my vented BOV releasing a mist of alcohol into a hot engine bay and igniting. I guess I will just recirculate it, but that kinda kills the fun of a turbo car.
JoeCooley

That's one of the reasons for the 50/50 mix, it apparently is not flamable in that ratio or less. If you have it set to come on at a certain boost level you shouldn't have much if any exiting the BOV as it should shut off as soon as pressure drops below the trigger point.

[MidnightriderZ24]

i ended up using a 5gph nozzle with -40 windshield washer fluid on a 3400 at 15psi. it loved it, smelled good after a few 2-5th pulls.

[Joseph Upson]

i ended up using a 5gph nozzle with -40 windshield washer fluid on a 3400 at 15psi. it loved it, smelled good after a few 2-5th pulls.

A member on the Fiero forum resently started using pre turbo injection after reading some of the info I posted and is having very good results. I've since read that the higher the meth ratio the lower the turbo outlet temps. A Buick racer reported turbo outlet temps 40 deg below ambient spraying 100% meth.

I know the TGP code has a power enrichment rpm vs. air fuel ratio table that could make it a little easier tuning high mix ratios by leaning the table out some at the upper end. Stock it's 10.4:1 above 5400 rpm, that's pretty rich. I believe I'd be happy if I could get within 20 deg of ambient without the inter cooler, although 40 below is very tempting.

That's an awful lot of power for just 9 psi.

[Joseph Upson]

I just received my extra nozzles from McMaster Carr today at $4.88 each and they look every bit as good as the ones in my Snow kit at about $25 each. Now that I think about it, instead of ordering the full cone spray pattern I probably should have gone with the hollow cone spray pattern since I'll have it pointed straight at the compressor wheel.

Heck for the price of one Snow Nozzle I could by 6 from McMaster and have one for each cylinder.

[robertisaar]

direct port methanol would be pretty bad-ass!

[Joseph Upson]

Yeah but, from what I've read it's not all that beneficial for the added hassle involved.

[robertisaar]

considering how much methanol is needed to change AFRs signifiantly, i'm not surprised.