Master pinout/16236757

[ericjon262]

also, it could be argued that with a perfect tune, you wouldn't need o2 sensors either...

[ericjon262]

I bought a set of flow matched injectors for my build, the balance problem could be in part caused by a poorly designed intake. you can actually skew the injector pulse width to compensate for poor distribution or an over/under performing injector.

[TGP37]

you might be able to do that, I don't know. I am more interested in dual knock sensors then the dual 02's though. if I were to go that route, I might try to log EGT's through the second 02 port, but I'd be concerned with the PCM trying to adjust something through some hidden code somewhere...

I agree about the hidden code possiblity. Seems logging wideband via EGR position data signal line has some issues as well.

A/C Pressure signal line works too. If your tune is good, you should be fine with just 1 KR sensor. You can actually make them more or less sensitive and change how fast they rebound from knock detection against RPM. With TT you can do that and also tune burst knock variables.

Ultimately, you should not want your KR sensor to ever be needed. Only on a rare occasion, really hot day or bad gas should you need it.

Spark advance can only go as far as the most KR offending piston, imho. Flow testing injectors to balance piston kr will really help. I read some piston AFR can be as far off as 0.5 AFR. That's a lot for a turbo, holds back safer power.

Have you considered balancing the injectors?

[ericjon262]

you might be able to do that, I don't know. I am more interested in dual knock sensors then the dual 02's though. if I were to go that route, I might try to log EGT's through the second 02 port, but I'd be concerned with the PCM trying to adjust something through some hidden code somewhere...

[TGP37]

Well, you definitely helped with the pinout locations for the second O2. Seeming I can change the setting in HPT (which isn't a common setting found in 97 pcm through HPT as far as I can tell)

It may not be perfect due to the turbo, but still.


Getting the PCM to log the 2nd O2 is an interesting idea if the fuel adjustments can be prevented on bank 2 (keep it single bank) but use the 2nd O2 feed for data logging a wideband.

[ericjon262]

no I haven't tried it, I'm only going to be running one o2 on my setup, I just thought I would help with ideas.

[TGP37]

Ahh nice, did you try allowing the PCM to go closed loop with the second O2 wired up? It may be plug n play IF the 1st O2 is configured to turn on. Because I can't find a temp setting for closed loop bank 2. Which I gather the 2nd O2 is activated when the primary upstream is. To some degree a lot of the settings for the primary upstream I assume is shared with the 2nd primary.

However, noting the file I have has a setting to activate the 2nd O2......and a setting to determine how many downstream O2's.

If HPT allowed me to save in Bin format then I could easily pin point the setting in a binary editor.


Edit: I do believe there are still tables Tiny Tuner doesn't list, but not many. TT is open ended so you can learn to insert new tables you discover in a binary editor of some kind.

[ericjon262]

Ahh, I see what you meant.

Seriously though, look up what GM vehicles toss any DTC code for the 2nd O2 sensor. P0151, P0152, P0153, P0154, P0155. Weed out the ones that might apply and then we can dig up some pin outs. Maybe apply 0.7v to the suspected pinout and see if DHP or HPT can pick up on the signal for the B1S2 O2.

If you have a spare PCM, you could apply 0-1v to each blank pin while logging the vehicle (not running though, key on) and see which one triggers the S1B2 O2 data signal to jump. If none trigger it then it must be activated. This test would rule out the need to activate it or not in order to log it.

I've been quietly looking into this as well for the last few days. If and when I do find something, I'll definitely pass it on.



EDIT: I learned once the PCM looks for a ground in the heater circuit for the presence of an O2 sensor, determines if closed loop is possible. I suppose it may be logical to assume a second bank O2 may operate the same way. If the PCM detects a ground in the heater circuit (meaning it is plugged in).

Or however the PCM determines if there is an O2 present, the same should apply to the second. Then it should be just a matter of wiring it up and letting the PCM determine. Because activating open loop and closed loop will turn on the 2nd bank O2 with the 1st bank....or just the 1st bank on single systems.

we already know which pins they are based on the 3800 pinouts, I went ahead and posted the pinout directly to the thread, that leaves it all up to the programming side of things.

[TGP37]

Ahh, I see what you meant.

Seriously though, look up what GM vehicles toss any DTC code for the 2nd O2 sensor. P0151, P0152, P0153, P0154, P0155. Weed out the ones that might apply and then we can dig up some pin outs. Maybe apply 0.7v to the suspected pinout and see if DHP or HPT can pick up on the signal for the B1S2 O2.

If you have a spare PCM, you could apply 0-1v to each blank pin while logging the vehicle (not running though, key on) and see which one triggers the S1B2 O2 data signal to jump. If none trigger it then it must be activated. This test would rule out the need to activate it or not in order to log it.

I've been quietly looking into this as well for the last few days. If and when I do find something, I'll definitely pass it on.



EDIT: I learned once the PCM looks for a ground in the heater circuit for the presence of an O2 sensor, determines if closed loop is possible. I suppose it may be logical to assume a second bank O2 may operate the same way. If the PCM detects a ground in the heater circuit (meaning it is plugged in).

Or however the PCM determines if there is an O2 present, the same should apply to the second. Then it should be just a matter of wiring it up and letting the PCM determine. Because activating open loop and closed loop will turn on the 2nd bank O2 with the 1st bank....or just the 1st bank on single systems.

[ericjon262]

You can use NBO2 pre-turbo, they just fail sooner as far as I can tell. Though I did use a pre-turbo NBO2 for 3 months, spirited driving of course. I didn't notice any major changes in operation. But then, it was only 3 months of driving. I changed manifold details.

Yeah Eric, though with DTC's, if a NBO2 sensor is turned off it can't report to any inquiring device (for inspection and I suspect the PCM Bus). But turning no reporting keeps it operational but not responsive. I wonder how much the DTC list has command over functionality of such systems.

IIRC, a PID is a variable, not a hardware thing.

Gotta run but I want to continue this topic later.

you can edit the PID in tiny tuner, I was just meaning that I don't think turning the code on will make bank to bank active, I think you can only activate it by changing the PID settings.

[TGP37]

You can use NBO2 pre-turbo, they just fail sooner as far as I can tell. Though I did use a pre-turbo NBO2 for 3 months, spirited driving of course. I didn't notice any major changes in operation. But then, it was only 3 months of driving. I changed manifold details.

Yeah Eric, though with DTC's, if a NBO2 sensor is turned off it can't report to any inquiring device (for inspection and I suspect the PCM Bus). But turning no reporting keeps it operational but not responsive. I wonder how much the DTC list has command over functionality of such systems.

IIRC, a PID is a variable, not a hardware thing.

Gotta run but I want to continue this topic later.

[ericjon262]

Is it ok to have O2 sensors pre-turbo? I always thought for some reason they should be post-turbo, in which case you would only need one narrowband anyway.

I don't think it is ok to run pre turbo o2's, I was just sharing my insights. on a twin turbo car though you could use dual o2's.

@ TGP37 I think is has less to do with the DTC's and more to do with the PID.

[caffeine]

Is it ok to have O2 sensors pre-turbo? I always thought for some reason they should be post-turbo, in which case you would only need one narrowband anyway.

[TGP37]

Here is what I know so far......

Using HPT Beta, the 97v6 controller w/ OSID 9355440

In the Open & Closed Loop tab, there is an option for 1 or 2 bank o2 sensor config. But only available in the Beta version. I don't know where that would be in Tiny Tuners. The option above, Exhaust Config, is straight or dual out. I suppose that controls how many downstream O2's are used. As 1 bank straight or y is 1 rear o2. But 2 sensors upfront can have 1 or 2 rear o2's if there are twin or single catalytics used.



I also noticed there are 3 sensors among 2 banks in the DTC list.

bank 1 sensor 1
bank 1 sensor 2
bank 1 sensor 3

bank 2 sensor 1
bank 2 sensor 2
bank 2 sensor 3

What could possibly be the 3rd sensor? Could that be a wideband capable input? Dual O2 per bank?

I can understand 2 sensors per bank with 2 banks. So I hope I helped but I think I probably introduced more questions then I tried to help answer, lol.



EDIT: Possibly look up people throwing DTC p0151 (or other bank2s1 codes) to find which GM vehicles have dual front o2's. Then find out which ones use the same type of PCM. Then it is just a matter of getting the wire diagrams and pin outs for that particular vehicle.

I am finding Chevy Silverado 2002 with the 5.3l as throwing p0151. It might be a big block thing. It might be a truck thing, I really don't know atm. But I am interested as well, i also want twin o2's and hopefully have twin catalytics down the road.

[ericjon262]

I have a 3800 5 speed bin now, it looks as though both bin files have the same trouble codes available, but the trouble codes turned on are not the same, could adding bank to bank o2's be as simple as turning on a trouble code?

edit: actually, there are a few trouble code missing here and there, but all of the o2 sensor codes are there in the 60V6 bin.

edit again:



P0243 Turbocharger Wastegate Solenoid A Malfunction

http://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/

hmmmm



edit(a third time):

it's also interesting to see codes like p307 and p308... misfire detected cyl 7&8...



edit(lol):

I see the knock sensor codes in there too...

should I keep listing edit??

oh well

Edit:


in tiny tuner:

Configuration>Main>o2 sensor config for PID 13

change value to 21 to match 3800 f body with dual o2's?

Edit(oh shit... now I'm editing my edits...) 1998 GTP bin uses "3" like our 60V6, I know PID 13 defines o2 sensor reading, but I don't see specifics... I would be willing to bet changing that value would enable bank 2 o2 sensors.


if you have any info on PID 13, it would be helpful, there's not a whole lot of info through a google search, and the tuning forums I've been on have no mention of it.