Timing Sets.

[3400-95-Modified]

How do you know both gears were hardened.

I'm just curious because if the SA set is comparable to the GM set and is a bit tighter then I may get one of those and treat it and try it out.

So far I have had NO issues with my GM set and its still quite to this day. Nothing like what happened to my original Cloyes set.

[Rhedalert]

Just to give an update- the crank gear from Cloyes set was the wrong design and did not even fit! Returned it and picked up an SA Gear set from Advanced. The chain was actually a USA-made Morse and both the crank and cam gear were hardened. Everything looked a LOT better and all at basically the same price as the Cloyes (not sure if the Cloyes set I received was tampered with). The SA set went on real nice, and the chain was good n tight.

[Rhedalert]

Yeah I read the thread. I'm not gonna worry about it too much. By the time this one needs changing, maybe someone will manufacture a more robust set.

[3400-95-Modified]

My cam is also nowhere near that radical and I'm running blue LS6 valve springs. I ran this engine over 70k miles using the stock 2001 timing set with the thin chain and it's just now making noise. Engine overall has about 110K.

I think your missing the fact that the FIRST picture in this thread is from a 100% stock 3400 with a Cloyes set. Stock motor Stock cam Stock springs... just a UDP...

Best of luck, but I cant see the crank gear lasting long, or the chain hanging in there too long.

The 00+ sets are better than the Cloyes ones if you ask me.

[Rhedalert]

Right now- costs. If I get 40k from this timing setup (which I will) that'll buy me another 2 years with this car. If I make it to that point (car has 203K) and it's still driveable I'll invest in something better.

My cam is also nowhere near that radical and I'm running blue LS6 valve springs. I ran this engine over 70k miles using the stock 2001 timing set with the thin chain and it's just now making noise. Engine overall has about 110K.

[3400-95-Modified]

After my findings on even a stock 3400 motor, why would you buy a Cloyes setup? even the chain itself seems of cheaper construction over the GM one.

[Rhedalert]

FYI I just bought the ( I believe discontinued) Cloyes 90385-S set and it indeed DOES contain a GM camshaft gear in the kit. Maybe Cloyes had a high problem rate with their own gear and buying a bunch of GM ones were cheaper? The crank gear doesn't look like GM though.

To be quite honest though, I remember pulling all the parts out of a cloyes box and just installing them... SO I wonder if the set I got contained a GM cam sprocket and a Aftermarket crank sprocket, and then the aftermarket chain....

If you want my honest opinion I think the cam gear wear is just due to the cam I'm running, and then the fact that the chain loosened up and once it does that it starts to beat on the gears more... The crank sprocket wear simply shows how cheap that replacement part is, and the chain, well we can see these aftermarket ones just don't last long in a cammed setup.

I know in the pics of the two side by side, the teeth look different but that's because one setup is chewed to hell were the stock GM one isn't beat as much. I believe that the chain spacing and angles are all the same, because I'm not the only one who has used a mix and matched set. Issac on here is running a cloyes chain with two GM sprockets, because he said it was tighter fit with the GM ones over the cloyes ones. This is on a fully stock motor though, so he may only notice a quicker chain fatigue, rather than getting 200k like he did on his stock chain.

Actually Issac, if you still have those cloyes sprockes or whatever you bought, Take a pic of the cam one and post it, I'm curious to see what it looks like.

One other thing to note, I was not aware of this damage on that stock 3400 till well after I had built this motor and it was in running, hence buying cloyes stuff again, so I would have had no reason to mix and match a timing set... That leads me to believe that maybe they are actually using GM cam sprockets in their kits now, BUT one may never know unless you go buy one again

[3400-95-Modified]

What's up with the WAI?

More effective. My under hood temps were never low with the CAI in the staging lanes either, they would get extra air being blown in through the radiator, so not only is the air the same temp, but now I was sucking it up through 2 90's and 2 45's... talk about restriction.

[60dgrzbelow0]

I have your latest video book-marked... What an amazing and mysterious thing it is to listen to all those well-behaved engine parts working away to make power. I just can't stop watching the video... it reminds me of those few moments that a Rodeo Bull Rider takes... when he's pressed his cowboy hat down snug, wrapped his hand as tight as he can stand it, checked his saddle... and looked over at the gate man and audience just before he says the Magic Word. Somehow... I'm imagining this is what your neighbors will be thinking about as you back out of your garage and get ready to take off. Thanks for sharing all of this... It's nice to see that you are, once again..."In the PINK"... and letting many of us in on something that is just so powerful and so very cool.

I'm grateful...

--==Bob==--

[IsaacHayes]

A worn chain does make a lot of noise. Everyone thought my lifters were shot on my car. After I did the chain the only ticking you can hear is the injectors firing if you put your head close to the motor. And yes that nominal slack with a new chain is normal.

What's up with the WAI?

[3400-95-Modified]

No there is nothing done to this block, the bottom end is still 100% GM built from the factory... Its a 05 3400 short block. The only thing I've done was replaced the cam bearings after 15k with the Milzy motorsports cam. I bought the engine with 4k and did 15k before this cam, and I think I've put about 12k on this current setup. Car had 74k on it when I bought it, the OD now reads 86 or 88 IIRC. And no, the crank bearings would never be worn that bad and not show signs of disaster such as oil more metallic than my paint, and uber low oil pressure.

And IIRC as you noted with the roller chains, the nature of those to begin with and how they work, they can have a much tighter setup, where with how mine is designed they do need a little slack, otherwise it would destroy the gears/or bind up the setup.

It's alive.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUmSF6b_Wwo

I hate how the camera emphasizes all the tiny exhaust leaks and the little ting you get with headers anyways... BUT honest to god, after I did the lifters I still heard tapping as you would call it, and I thought it was just the nature of the cam, BUT since I've now done the chain the engine is as quite as it was when I first fired off this build. I'm much happier now. You could hear a chatter as you would be driving before, and when ever I pulled it in the garage at the end of the day... All those noises are now gone. I love it. No oil leaks either... That's amazing in itself.

[60dgrzbelow0]

The following information is based on my conversations with chain manufacturers/distributors.

In regards to tensile strength, stock timing chains are stronger than roller chains due to their construction. It would be a waste of money to do a tensile strength test of the chains as the longevity of a roller chain comes from the pivot design where the hardened link pin is pivoting inside a smooth hardened tube instead of layers of short holes that were stamped in a die.

Everyone, including myself, always refers to it as chain stretch but the links aren't stretching. Instead, the pivots are wearing out like a door hinge on an old car. A worn chain will sag like that door when you hold it out sideways.

The double roller has two rows of smaller links which gives it more tensile strength but, more importantly, has longer pins that provide a larger wear surface. Double roller pins are about 50% longer but smaller in diameter. Some of the extra wear area is negated due to the reduction in pin diameter.

The only way to accurately test chains would be to run them on an engine as simulating the harmonics of an IC engine would be near impossible.

CNCGuy is right. But its actually the barrels of steel AROUND those slender fixed pins in the matched side plates almost like rivets that do all of the rolling, whereas the vertically stacked plates of steel in the wedge design chains can never do that...they simply grab at each tooth face and brutally drag them around with enormous contact friction at every possibly point in between. The reason Cloyes calls their roller chains "true rollers" is because the pin barrels are doing exactly that... rolling endlessly around those fixed plate pins and thereby reducing friction by one hell of a lot! They are designed and behave exactly like the barrel segments in a bicycle chain. Without this feature...you couldn't ride a bike around a city block without the chain seizing up if it had an un-lubricated wedge design for a chain!

The newly installed Cloyes TR-TS one on my current build is so close and so tight right now that you could not slip a playing card between the inner chain side and the rubber-coated chain guide if you tried! So if the latest TS you installed in the engine is ALSO loose like the others... then the only other explanations I can think of that would cause this to happen is either you've had the lower block and cam bores machined (align bored) and perhaps this reduced the distance between the camshaft and the crankshaft afterward if not done exactly right. (CNCGuy & John - Forced Firebird... is this possible?) Its either that...or...in this one, last outrageous possibility ...is that your main bearings at the front of the block have worn down to the point where it allows the crankshaft to have enough play to make the chain loose. Have you had any such dramatic machining done to this engine?

I just looked at your second video (I had some trouble with the link) ... Your newest TS looks very nominal...not more than a .25" deflection... Much better than the one in your original video...

[geldartb]

yep same as your video with the new gm set

[3400-95-Modified]

Ok, so it was like the video of my new GM set... The second two I posted are ones from before... so really those two with the holey cam gear can be ignored they were for reference only.

[geldartb]

i do remember my new GM set i put on this motor was like your first video. tight on one side and very little slack on the backside.
this was a few weeks ago when i put it back together