Timing Sets.

[60dgrzbelow0]

Mr. Pink...

I think you may have zeroed this problem situation perfectly! If you have a hybrid set up between two different cam gears; that is to say...a stock, GM OEM cast one for the large gear and the smaller one being a Cloyes, it seems very plausible that they probably have some very different cog delineations that would escape the naked eye, so it would appear reasonable to do this hybridized arrangement. But once the GM chain engages the factory gear on the cam... (with or without an HB)...and makes first contact with the 'enemy' (Cloyes), then the battle for alignment would be on. Since the chain too is designed for a perfect fit on the OEM cam gear, nothing would happen until it makes contact (very much out of design alignment)t when rolling around the smaller crank cogs of the Cloyes smaller crankshaft gear...and then ...even with what you might think were the slightest of variations...this variation in design elements becomes serious.

Everyone has to admire how honest you have been in making this recognition...and in doing so ...you have nailed this problem down tight. You've got Balls as Big as Church Bells, Brother! But to mix and match gears from different Timing Sets ...is antithetical to the very concept that they indeed are exactly THAT...a SET.. with the small gear, large gear and chain all having the same angles of incidence and forming contacts to match each other and transmit and diffuse the forces of torque and minimize friction as much as possible, too. And so they MUST be installed as a complete set. Those are some excellent images you have taken. Thanks for going to so much trouble to improve our understanding. I really hope this is what has happened to explain so much metallic "destruction by dis-agreement (Bruxism)", for lack of a better phrase, to describe what you have discovered. I hope this does the trick and the new hardware going in is better behaved... while still letting you muscle that Pink Machine around with some brand new horse power. If I may suggest one other thing...how about soaking the chain overnight in mixture of Mell-Lube or some other similar quality engine assembly lube... mixed with a can of Valvoline Racing Oil (it has all the metal hardening goodies) or if you prefer...Royal Purple...and this way...you will be giving the new Timing Set the best chance to get off on the right "Tooth"...?

[sprucegagt]

Time for my completely abstract post.

I would imagine that my chain looks a lot like this. I've been hearing it for about the last year and don't really want to put the Cloyes replacement due to knowing it won't last long. I'm currently running 26915 Comp springs with SI valves and an FFP UDP. I already have a double roller setup but I'm waiting to get enough money to use it with a 3500 instead of wasting it with a 145,000 mile 3400.

[3400-95-Modified]

Pics of the gears I just pulled out.

Crank


Cam


Side crank




Wear on the guide

[3400-95-Modified]

Oh yeah that was only about 12k miles....

Here is that same motor when I had the Milzy cam and LS6 springs... and a stock 05 GM timing chain... 15k miles, and the UDP was on this setup.


I guess that shows that stock chains or OEM replacement chains just don't cut it for when running aftermarket springs and cams... I hope my Cryogenic treatment of the new setup helps make it last longer, this wasn't a fun job.


I will have pics of the new setup on tues or wed when I get the parts back. Should go back together Friday or the weekend.

[1988GTU]

Wowzer!

[3400-95-Modified]

Well, I happened to have a stock timing gear on the cam, but a cloyes one on the crank, I have NO idea why... I don't know how I ended up with that one.

Either way, the cam gear shows SOME wear but NOTHING like the other cloyes one, and by doing my file test on the two at work before taking this apart I think its due to the fact that this one is hardened a little bit more. Also the lack of the UDP probably helped. BUT as you can see the bigger cam and larger springs and high RPM's have done this chain in...

I'll get better pics of the individual gears shortly, for now the pics of the work today.

What space I have to work with..


Almost apart


Stock Balancer see!


HOLY STRETCHED CHAIN!!!!!!!! the guide has some good marks on it from this rubbing it badly.

[60dgrzbelow0]

I'm inclined to agree with you on the obvious physical differences between the stock GM OEM timing set and the Cloyes in your side by side images.The GM plates seem to be denser in design ...it would be interesting to know if there is a difference in the tooth count between the sets. And even in their methods of manufacture, you can see that the GM pins stampings are more uniform, whereas the Cloyes look quite varied...sometimes rounded...other times with actual dimples which shows an inconsistency of manufacture, It would be interesting to see whether they both follow the pattern of having the large gear casted and the small gear made of billet steel.

The other thing that would be critical is the density of their mesh. You would not think that two items made of steel could have such a variation in durability...but in the same manner that a Ten Ton Elephant can walk over a prone man who is covered with a 4' X 8' plank of plywood and remain completely unharmed... while a woman weighing a mere 90 lbs can step on a man's chest wearing Stiletto High heels and easily puncture his lungs, killing him. It all has to do with the physical laws that state:

As Area Decreases...Pressure Increases
As Area Increases... Pressure Decreases

You can see clearly in your images that the Cloyes gear teeth appear longer and farther apart...while the GM gear teeth are stockier, denser and appear to be more numerous as well. But when all is said and done...betterthanyou has had this problem pegged from Jump Street. A properly installed Harmonic Balancer will ordinarily manage to cover up a multitude of sins in the variations of make and quality for all of these Timing Sets. I'm beginning to wonder if perhaps there is a...shall we say...an "oriental" persuasion that is selling bootleg versions of the Cloyes Timing Sets? With the gears you displayed being in such poor shape...and so susceptible to easy denting and surface marking from your latest test of your suspicions ... I'm beginning to wonder whether you may have gotten hold of a knock-off Timing Set.

[3400-95-Modified]

Answered my question as easily as taking a file to the teeth... I can start a groove with a file on the cloyes cam gear by simply scratching at it with the file, its like butter.... the Stock GM one that I have from an old motor will NOT groove without extensively more effort, file tends to slide off the edge since it can't start a groove to stay in. Same with the crank sprocket, BUT that seems to be hardened more than the cam gear... Its harder to start a mark on the cloyes one but you still can, and as for the GM one, its almost impossible to start a groove with the file, that one is like super hard.

On the cloyes crank gear you can see a bluish hardening ring around the teeth, the Cam one shows nothing similar to this.

I'm not eliminating the UDP from the problem... I just think the cheapness of the Cloyes set made the damages more obvious over a shorter period of time.

I really can't wait to get the timing set thats in my car out now...

[3400-95-Modified]

That was the cam sprocket, not the crank one... Actually the crank one looks like it held up better.

I have two theories on that one... Yes the non HB setup had something to do with this, but the extent of the damage is also due to the fact that the Cloyes set is of much less durability of a stock set.

I'm trying to prove this via a hardening test, but I'm not sure what I can do to fully prove that. Either way we will see what my current set looks like after about 12k of running with a factory HB on there... That will prove my theory of the quality of the set. I've already tested and found that the chain has stretched some so thats a strike against the set already, or at least against running comp springs and a big cam.

[60dgrzbelow0]

God knows you must be sick to death of all this controversy over using an HB, but I was up late this evening, thinking about the photos of your chewed up TS and something flashed in my memory about a very unique feature of engines of the V6 variety that might explain the wandering cuts and slices in the gear teeth of your TS.

One of the odd characteristics in our engines (both the 60* and the 90* Vee Sixers) is that the linear direction of the "ever-increasing-amplitude-harmonics" phenomena is that it moves in a LONGITUDINAL direction, along the length of the crankshaft. And so it would seem that those harmonics would get vectored either forward or aft as they build up and subside, depending upon when and for how long the engine finds itself at those destructive harmonic RPM 'sweet spots' while running.

This strange action might explain why the GM engineers put a fairly beefy set of vertical thrust bearing surfaces on the sides of the one main journal bearing set... not only as the means of fighting against "torque creep"...but possibly also because this lateral motion of the crank back and forth is being amplified by the concentration of longitudinal harmonic vibrations.

It follows that since these forces are being concentrated away from the crankshaft end with either a heavy flywheel for the MTs or the lighter flex-plate A/Ts... when you think about it...there really is only one place for them to go...and that is forward along the length of the crank and either out and into an OEM Harmonic Balancer to be properly dissipated and disposed of...or in the absence of this cast iron (steel?) dual-ring designed version... out through the last piece of metal capable of absorbing all these changing forces: The Small Timing Set Gear... thereby wreaking havoc on the Timing Set through the transmission of these violent, uncontrolled vibrations.

Judging by the poor condition of the teeth on that small gear from your TS... the damage probably happened in different parts of the gear teeth...at the various times in the whole range of RPMS you were driving that wound up creating such a wide variety of scratches and dents...even to the point of looking like the edges of some of the teeth were bent in and then out with a pair of Vice-Grips! So.... Am I nuts...or does any of this gibberish make any sense as an explanation for the condition of the TS after so few miles?

By the way... This may or may not be Off Topic...But...if anyone doubts the physics behind all of this... just checkout that one "MythBusters" show where the two geeky geniuses of mayhem try to debunk Nikola Tesla's notion that with a little amplifying motor driving an oscillation rod in sync with anything's "natural vibrational frequency"...that would fit into the palm of your hand, he could bring down and destroy anything...even an entire skyscraper in NYC by causing it to vibrate itself to pieces. It was rumored that after strapping his device to a steel girder in the basement of his hotel... it started shaking so violently after his device was running for a while, that he ran downstairs and struck it with a fire axe...just in the "Nick" (play on words intended) of time before it fell to pieces. For their "MB" experiment... "Jamie and Friend" found an abandoned steel girder bridge to d*ck around with their shop-made version of this "engine of destruction".....and ...well...you know...I don't want to spoil the ending for you... It might even be on Youtube by now...

[onefastV6]

I don't know if this should be pinned somewhere, but here are the P/N's of all the timing components for a 94-99 3x00 motor.

Cam Sprocket 10166350
Crank Sprocket 14074400
Chain 10166352
Dampener 10166353

I'm also sending mine to www.nitrofreeze.com on Wednesday. A whopping $37 will treat the whole timing set, turn around time is "in by Friday out by Tuesday" They do batch jobs over the weekend only for their racing department(to keep it cheap) so turn around can be 1 week to 1 weekend... depending on when you deliver it.

Let me know how the cryo treated set works out, it seemed like the most economical choice as the single roller isn't ready. I have heard alot of good things about cryo treating engine components, so time will tell if it is the case for these timing sets.

[3400-95-Modified]

I don't know if this should be pinned somewhere, but here are the P/N's of all the timing components for a 94-99 3x00 motor.

Cam Sprocket 10166350
Crank Sprocket 14074400
Chain 10166352
Dampener 10166353

I'm also sending mine to www.nitrofreeze.com on Wednesday. A whopping $37 will treat the whole timing set, turn around time is "in by Friday out by Tuesday" They do batch jobs over the weekend only for their racing department(to keep it cheap) so turn around can be 1 week to 1 weekend... depending on when you deliver it.

[3400-95-Modified]

Well yeah, I'm well aware of what a dampener does; I've known and learned this after my first two motors.

The history of my builds that most don’t know… I put the FFP UDP on my stock engine in my 1995 Beretta and never had any "issues" that I knew about with it, I think even the factory chain held up to the abuse it did give it, I never kept that motor after I removed it and never inspected the timing setup on it. BUT I went out and took 3400 and did a full rebuild on it, I put the FFP on that, I ran it for 60k miles before I popped the head gaskets at the drag way and pulled it for my new engine I was building, my 3400/3500 hybrid with a Milzy Stage 1 cam. Now that motor when it went in ALSO received the FFP UDP... I ran that for 15k miles before I found and purchased this new 1996 Beretta that was rust free and would become my "Project" car so I could get these built motors out of my DD.

I took the 96 3100 out and put it in my DD 95, freeing up the 3400/3500 hybrid. I started to take this motor apart to upgrade the springs and the cam before putting it in the new 96 car, When I was taking it apart I heard all the discussions between Dave and Ben and a few others on how his FFP UDP has been causing issues on his motor, SO when I took the hybrid apart I paid close attention. My 4k mile 05 chain that was in that engine and run for a measly 15k was stretched badly (no physical damage like the sprocket I have pictured though), I have video of how bad it was, also the Bronze pump drive gear I had was worn badly... That may be its function but after 15k I think it was excessively worn. Also the cam bearings didn't look to happy.... When putting this latest revision back together, I used new cam bearings, stock pump drive gear (since I now had a regrind cam not billet), and a 99 Cloyes chain setup hoping to minimize stretch. Then I put it all together with a stock 04 3400 dampener, NO more UDP on the toy car. I further explored the UDP damages when I took apart my 60k mile 3400 to rebuild it and put it in my 95 DD since the 96 3100 wasn’t faring to well... When I took that engine apart is when I found this destroyed Cloyes chain set, this is when I said that UDP will NEVER touch my motor again, not until they find a way to add in a dampener of some sort.

SO maybe if a few others read this they will realize that my current engine I'm NOT expecting to see a chain/sprocket set this bad... since I have NOT run the UDP on this engine setup ever. BUT if I do take it apart and see the same damages then I'm simply going to say that these Cloyes replacements are just not up to the same standards as an OEM setup. I do know however that the current chain is stretched a little just by feeling the play at the crank, so that is why I already think the chains are not as tough as an OEM setup. We will see. I'm taking the cover off this weekend since that’s when my new set will be getting the deep freeze, and then I can follow assembly the following week.

I appreciate the link to the article, and I will be posting and pinning that info on Beretta.net since there are so many out there that just don't know. And think everything is just fine all the time.

BTW, no offence taken, if you can’t take constructive criticism then you really shouldn’t be on a message board

[60dgrzbelow0]

Well then I guess its a group thought that no dampener is responsible for death to chains, BUT that doesn't mean I didn't stretch the shit out of this Cloyes one I have on there now with my big cam and springs...

3400-95-Modified...

Having read many a post and seen how often you contribute to all of our problematic situations, I'm hoping that you won't be offended by input from rookies like myself as a new forum member ...but also as someone with no small amount of experience as a mechanic, too... One who... just like you... is hoping to make a contribution here and there that makes our members in need feel surprise, relief and even a little bit of humor now and then; offered to ease the pressure we can all feel from time to time when faced with either a strange mechanical puzzle...or even a circumstance that we hold our breath over while on the brink of an automotive disaster. Anyone curious about your chops as somebody who is wrapped tight enough to know his mechanics has only to visit this site...and... Stop....Look .....and.... Listen...

http://s257.photobucket.com/albums/hh201/3400modified/Beretta/?action=view&current=Twoofakind004.flv

So I'm hoping you won't think that additions like mine...which I try to keep as error free as possible, are ever given with any hidden desire to be competitive. I've seen the chains and gears similar to the ones that right now are a parasitic plague on your engine's performance...and I know that you don't have time for any Mickey Mouse while trying to get to the bottom of this problem. So it is with that benign intent and best wishes for your triumph that I offer the below listed link to article that may help all of us to understand that a Harmonic Balancer is not just some massive lump of "steel" hanging off the nose of the crank, trying to "steal" horse power. On the contrary, what is written at the below link is a very informative and interesting explanation on this entire subject. I hope you take this in the spirit it is offered to you:

http://www.atiracing.com/products/dampers/damper_dinan.htm

Bob

[3400-95-Modified]

Well then I guess its a group thought that no dampener is responsible for death to chains, BUT that doesn't mean I didn't stretch the shit out of this Cloyes one I have on there now with my big cam and springs...

We'll see later this week. I should be getting my parts tomorrow or wed, then dropping them off for a deep freeze over the weekend and getting them back next Monday or Tues, I think I'll have car torn apart that weekend though and put it back together on Friday of next week. I'm busy during the week with the roundy round car.