(pics) 3900 and 3500 oilpump comparison

[gectek]

that is def what i would do. i have never made outrageous claims. i do built 660s but my shop is not interested in them enough right now to take the time to modify them with oil jets. if we were, then it would happen, believe that. katech commonly modifies the LS series of GM engines with oil squirters. that vvt pump is just too much for any purpose other than what it is intended for.

[Driver_10]

It is the LS motors with VVT that he is referring to.

Ahh! I see. Forgive me for being an ass then...

Well, I guess Ill start with a stock 3500 pump and test from there. Thanks for the excellent feed-back.

[SappySE107]

It is the LS motors with VVT that he is referring to.

[Driver_10]

Perhaps maybe that was an assumption on my behalf.

However, he did say specificlly that they used "VVT" oil-pumps and blocks moddified for oil-jets. What other engine could he be describing?

Although there are a few other GM engines that use oil-jets, I wasnt aware that there were any other engine block designs that were compatable with the VVT "oil-pump". (unless of course hes talking about the LS3 "variable cam" blocks orsomething along those lines)

I just want my data to be concise.

[SappySE107]

Where did he say they were 60V6s? He did not because they were not. I know this as fact and you can take it as such. If you feel this makes what he has said as irrelevant to your setup, by all means do it and let us know how it works out for you.

[Driver_10]

Oh but you don't want to sound stand offish? Get real. Do what you want and tell us what it does. You can be certain no one here has an 800hp 60V6.

His claim was so bold that Im sincerely curious.

If he says his shop has built some high-output 660s with oil-jets and so-forth, then I will give him the benifit of the doubt.

I have my own theories BUT, Im sincerely awaiting his reply. I really want to hear, whether bullshit or honest truth, what he has to say.

Who knows, I might just learn something new.

[SappySE107]

Oh but you don't want to sound stand offish? Get real. Do what you want and tell us what it does. You can be certain no one here has an 800hp 60V6.

[Driver_10]

im saying even engines that we have built for high perf setups of over 800 hp have tried to use the vvt oil pump, even with the oil squirter being machined into the block exactly like you are doing and they ran into problems just like i said. they thought it was worth it too....in reality it was not and it cost them an engine. anytime we build an engine, doesnt matter if it has loose clearances or not, we do not recommend high volume unless the engine is race only. by race only i mean its going to live its entire life on the track. no daily driving, nothing. on a road race car, i would def not recommend a high volume pump. oil starvation + high g's in the corner = bad juju

I am not being a sceptic or a smart-ass. Right now I am as serious as cancer...I want to be absolutely clear when I write this, so please read carefully.

Im assuming correctly then that this is PROVEN science and not mere hypothesis.

You are stating that you have INDEED assembled 60 degree motors , (NOT an LS1 or some other motor besides a 660) with oil-jets and 3500 VVT pumps that have failed because of excessive oil-pressure. If that, and none other, is the case then....

*ahem*...Have YOU had success running an "oil-jet" modified, high-output, high-rpm, 60 degree v6, motor with a stock pump with shimmed oil-relief springs in a daily driven car

If you have an accurate answer for this that is based on an actual, "real-life" example, then I will personally name my first born in your honor.

(Im am being as sincere as I can without septicism. Youll have to excuse the interogation. But I need an absolutely clear answer to this question)

[AaronGTR]

Based on your symptoms, thats the only evaluation that I can come up with. Unless theres some sort of internal oil-leak, I cant think of any other culprit.

Without proper evaluation of the rotating assembly, you cant be sure of the engines internal condition. Just because its a 58k engine doesn't guarantee its condition.

You did find evidence of excessive bearing material in that oil-sample analysis, did you not?

No they didn't mention anything related to bearing material in their report. They can tell if the metals present point to that. They said the silicone content was lower than last time but the oil had less miles on it than the last test so that doesn't mean much. I replaced the rockers and pushrods after the last test so I had the engine apart and they said the engine work could be responsible for the silicone levels from sealants etc. Otherwise it could be dirt getting in the engine and contributing to wear. Higher than average aluminum content could be from the rockers they said as well. Copper levels were higher than average which they said could be from something in the supercharger. Iron was also slightly high, everything else was close to normal. So silicone, aluminum, copper, and iron. I wonder if any of this could be from my oil pump drive gear?

im saying even engines that we have built for high perf setups of over 800 hp have tried to use the vvt oil pump, even with the oil squirter being machined into the block exactly like you are doing and they ran into problems just like i said. they thought it was worth it too....in reality it was not and it cost them an engine. anytime we build an engine, doesnt matter if it has loose clearances or not, we do not recommend high volume unless the engine is race only. by race only i mean its going to live its entire life on the track. no daily driving, nothing. on a road race car, i would def not recommend a high volume pump. oil starvation + high g's in the corner = bad juju

I get what you are saying there and it certainly makes sense. One thing I would point out though, if you were using the engine in a road race car and it really was a dedicated race engine, you should still be able to use a HV pump if the oil system is built properly for raod racing. IE a high capacity pan with baffles or a dry sump system... you wouldn't have to worry about oil slosh and pump starvation. Of course, that doesn't really apply to anyone here. As with anything it's a matter of choosing the right components for the engine's intended purpose rather than just trying to go overkill on everything.

[gectek]

im saying even engines that we have built for high perf setups of over 800 hp have tried to use the vvt oil pump, even with the oil squirter being machined into the block exactly like you are doing and they ran into problems just like i said. they thought it was worth it too....in reality it was not and it cost them an engine. anytime we build an engine, doesnt matter if it has loose clearances or not, we do not recommend high volume unless the engine is race only. by race only i mean its going to live its entire life on the track. no daily driving, nothing. on a road race car, i would def not recommend a high volume pump. oil starvation + high g's in the corner = bad juju

[Driver_10]

I HIGHLY doubt oil sheer is the problem as well, but there's no real way to tell without tearing my engine apart and checking the bearing clearances is there?

Anyway, my engine only has 58k miles on it. Not much. I've had the pressure gauge installed since 25 or 30k miles or so and had no valve train or other internal engine mods at that time that would possibly contribute to extra wear. It hasn't changed over time that I've noticed either... just always been low. It's hard to tell exactly what the presure is because it's a narrow sweep gauge. I'm thinking of getting a new gauge with a better scale and a new sender so I know it's working correctly and I can get a better reading. Then I'll see where I go from there.

Based on your symptoms, thats the only evaluation that I can come up with. Unless theres some sort of internal oil-leak, I cant think of any other culprit.

Without proper evaluation of the rotating assembly, you cant be sure of the engines internal condition. Just because its a 58k engine doesnt garrantee its condition.

You did find evidence of excessive berring material in that oil-sample analysis, did you not?

[Driver_10]

Ooooohhhh... gectek was saying that its the VVT portion that requires the additional flow. That makes his arguement a lot more plausible.

However, the VVT actuator couldnt possibly use as much oil the oil-jets do. At 7500rpms with loosened clearances, turbo oil-feed and 6 squirting oil-jets, thats gonna add-up to quite a bit of required flow.

(ps sorry about sounding "stand-off'ish" before)

[AaronGTR]

If oil pressure is low at part idle and drops considerably at high rpms, then excessive sheering is the most likey cause. Had his pressure been low yet stable from 2000-redline, then I would diagnose the pressure relief spring.

You have to remember that an engine's oiling system is a regulated "oil-leak". The looser that an engine gets over time, the more oil will "sheer" away and leak off at the clearances between the berrings.

You can shim a pump much to your heart's desires and still not get adaquate oil-pressure IF there isnt enough flow passing through the clearances to form restriction and build pressure.

Pumps can only produce oil flow, NOT pressure.

I HIGHLY doubt oil sheer is the problem as well, but there's no real way to tell without tearing my engine apart and checking the bearing clearances is there?

Anyway, my engine only has 58k miles on it. Not much. I've had the pressure gauge installed since 25 or 30k miles or so and had no valve train or other internal engine mods at that time that would possibly contribute to extra wear. It hasn't changed over time that I've noticed either... just always been low. It's hard to tell exactly what the presure is because it's a narrow sweep gauge. I'm thinking of getting a new gauge with a better scale and a new sender so I know it's working correctly and I can get a better reading. Then I'll see where I go from there.

[gectek]

i would look at that yes

[91LQ1Lumina]

Just so I have a handle on what your saying. The VVT portion of my LZE is what needs the larger pump, and since my plans are to remove or disable the VVT. Should I then consider downgrading this oil pump before I ever consider using this engine?