Contact Info for Ben @ WOT TECH

[SappySE107]

I actually stopped reading this thread when it got to be about sound. Its all good, we will just have to talk soon. every day has been absolutely packed with way too much going on

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Thanks, Dave, re: Helmholtz resonators... I've never really looked into those/J bends, not having done a custom exhaust since the early 90's. Need to do some reading, and talk to some exhaust shops. Great suggestio.

May I ask regarding crossovers (h/Xpipes). I don't see the performance benefit, but in your experience, how does it shape the sound for this motor?

I believe you had an LX9 in a Camaro, so longitudinal RWD, no downpipe applies to me. I'll be fascinated to hear your experiences.

I have this fear of taking my car, once finally completed, to "Brand X" muffler shop with several pairs of silencers, an IR thermometer for potential welding of H/X pipe, etc., and spending thousands of dollars. Yuck.

Regarding the sound, after you all have shared videos, I'm sure it won't be too challenging; being frank, the links I've provided for cars I'm emulating have exhausts which sound "spitty," not "muscular" the way I believe most current aftermarket exhaust-makers tune their stuff. Proper headers, sufficient exhaust dia, and silencers that don't tune much themselves should be okay; "aging" the motor with some lope will help on the induction side.

You've made a great point, in that a key aspect is drone and resonance-suppression. You drive the cars I've listed, or any new vehicle except a Boss 302, and you don't have that rumbling and cabin-resonance that so many aftermarket exhausts introduce. If you want to share your exhaust configuration experiments, or have a link somewhere, I'd love to see.

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Hi, would you explain what you mean by tuning? Specifically for these motors, besides cam timing, air/fuel/spark, and mechanical tuning (component-matching), is there something specific you're referring to here.

I completely agree with the performance factor on a racing car; for this specific project, we're looking to modernize the comfort, performance, and reliability of an old vehicle while retaining that classic character...I don't want anything to appear modern or "restomodded."

Hence, sound, in this case, is critical for me; losing say 20hp is fine, as long as throttle response, RPM behavior, and valvetrain stability remain.

Technically any headers on the 660 are 180* headers...

Look at the firing order of the 660 and what the 180* headers do...

You might be thinking of the common collector 180* headers as found on many mid engine super cars, and that could change the sound, but difficult to do in a front engine longitudinally mounted configuration.

I'd love to get that tuned supercar sound to my system eventually, but I realized unless I go to a flat crank V8 and wind it high, using common collector 180* headers I likely won't get anywhere near that sound. I'm ok with that, because sound is secondary... function before form, and sound to me falls in the form category.

One thing I have noticed that tuning can make quite teh difference in how an engine sounds, and the closer to a properly tuned engine I get the closer to that tuned, albeit different tone sound I get.

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NOTE FOR BEN: Realize conversation has veered off WOT Tech's products. If you want to move the thread, I understand and apologize. I'd still like to continue these conversations, so let me know where to find them.


I believe it'll actually be a 240 degree header with a 60 banked V6. Don't think they're applicable here; The crosstalk isn't the same as a 90 degree V8, being even-fire. Don't hold me to that, but I believe that's true. 90 degree V8, the firing pattern is unbalanced, like 180-90-180-270, hence the supposed need for the crossovers.

In any case, no room for those snakes, and I'm personally not a fan of flat cranked/180 degree header on V8 sounds, at least not for road cars, or a classic car. Listen to a 458 in person; below say 4000 RPM it's a vacuum (although admittedly at full chat it's lovely.) There's a guy here that zooms down Chestnut St (residential, 2 lane, 25mph), and it's obnoxious until the secondary pipes open up.

...On an open-wheeled car, on the other hand...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJfwa1_RiWg

...Revving to around 20K RPM doesn't hurt.

Any other videos of the Fiero? I'd like to see what was done to his exhaust; I'll read the Monte thread when time.

And, will call you, Ben, over the weekend; I PM'd asking what days work best for a chat and order, so if any then I'll buzz, if a specific day or work week better, let me know.

Great chats, guys; thank you. I'm receiving wonderful advice.

[SappySE107]

You have a firing order every 60 degrees so you have to pair 2 specific cylinders to have 180 degree headers. Or am I thinking of a different 180 degrees? We have a member on this forum who did this pairing in a monte. Its been done in a fiero (Taiwan) thats on youtube and gets linked to a lot on here.

http://60degreev6.com/forum/showthre...e-Build-Thread

Technically any headers on the 660 are 180* headers...

Look at the firing order of the 660 and what the 180* headers do...

You might be thinking of the common collector 180* headers as found on many mid engine super cars, and that could change the sound, but difficult to do in a front engine longitudinally mounted configuration.

I'd love to get that tuned supercar sound to my system eventually, but I realized unless I go to a flat crank V8 and wind it high, using common collector 180* headers I likely won't get anywhere near that sound. I'm ok with that, because sound is secondary... function before form, and sound to me falls in the form category.

One thing I have noticed that tuning can make quite teh difference in how an engine sounds, and the closer to a properly tuned engine I get the closer to that tuned, albeit different tone sound I get.

[Superdave]

1 1/2" primaries are too small, 1 5/8" is usually what we use. 28"-32" if longtubes, otherwise some mid-length down around 20" with 2.25" collectors should work well enough.


I've done a ridiculous amount of different exhaust systems on these engines, I'm trying to picture a way to get the sound you're after.

One of the best ways to get that euro sound would be 180 degree headers. Other than that, duals with an X pipe + resonators or a long merge pipe with resonators.

One of the biggest things you want to avoid is pipe diameter changes, also using mandrel bends and really paying attention to any "lips" that protrude into the path when you are fabricating will help get rid of exhaust echo. Just know that X pipes are naturally loud at the X itself.

Making some adjustable Helmholtz resonators towards the end of the system would also help you dial in the exact tone you want. Here is some info on that from my notes:

1100 feet/second (roughly the speed of sound) divided by the target frequency you're trying to eliminate (in cycles/second) gives a full wavelength in feet per cycle. Divide this number by 4 to get a quarter wavelength (a much more convenient length to work with). Finally, multiply this wavelength by 12 to get the chamber length in inches.

Tap this length of pipe into the exhaust tube, making sure the other end of the pipe is capped off, and you have a Helmholtz chamber that takes the annoying frequency and bounces it back into the flow 180 degrees out of phase, knocking it out. The results: no more drone.

The 5th gen Camaro guys are doing this with V6's and V8's to get rid of drone, it works very well.

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=102075

[robertisaar]

yes, it's a typical straight-through glasspack(and cost me nearly nothing), i want to call it a "drilled" rather than "louvered" style in that there aren't any fins that stick up into the exhaust stream to impede flow that i've seen some built as. according to some info i wrote quite some time ago, look like cherry bomb part number 87502.

http://www.cherrybomb.com/Catalog/glasspack_3_12_body_straight_tubes/glasspack-87502.aspx

for what it's worth, i like a very low idle.... in that video, it was sitting at roughly 600RPM when i wasn't playing with the throttle. i'm pleased with the sound, though i do need to fix a section of pipe(got slightly crushed) and rehang it.

from my limited experience with hearing the modified exhaust systems on other people's 60V6 cars in person, chambered mufflers always seem to cause a thumpy exhaust note at idle and will resonate/drone near cruise speeds(so 1800ish RPM). i want to say almost all of them used the factory dual exhaust routing(so a single pipe until near the rear axle, then split for each side). very few people seem to go the all resonator route, though one of my favorite ones i've heard in person is from Aweb.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSAQMcgHL9Q

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Robert, don't knock it, your car actually sounds lovely; nice what exhaust can do, no?

Per your video, under load your Monte has a nice rumble with a metallic edge to it; I'd welcome that in my project, perhaps with even more mechanical noise. At idle, your car does an approximation of a crossplaned pushrod V8, amazing.

Your cherry bomb, it's a straight through perforated type or glass pack muffler, yes? In your opinion, the distinctions of that vs the chambered style soundwise on these motors? Also, what do you feel the benefits were of the resonators you have listed?

I'm looking at the medium-bore, 1960's European car sound, like a Triumph TR6/E-type/Ferrari Dino thing. Very mechanical vs the resonating exhausts of today. To be honest, it's probably plain or hoarse for most ears, but I'm looking at making this car appear as if it came from some factory this way.

Ever hear a Columbo V12, or the straight 6 in the Maserati A6G 2000's? Ripping canvas amazing-ness.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DrVzr69bYk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ptmeWtdH3Y

http://vimeo.com/34647626

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Ok so I had to look up volvo 1800s.

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Volvo makes me think

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Ok, so...yeah id say that's not even in the ballpark of what I had in mind. Doesn't change what id recommend but now i wanna see pics of the one you are working with. The crossover is for sound, so its all up to you. Im only an expert because I know what other people have done as well as our own stuff. If you can do some custom equal length headers, then its going to be even more so (ask superdave on here). About 32" primaries ideally if you are ambitious.

32" primaries... ain't gonna happen

The engine builder, who granted isn't familiar with these motors, popped some figures in and came up with 1 1/2", 34" primaries to 2.75" to 2.5" collectors... we looked at the Volvo, laughed at the length and thought the primaries looked too small; we better find some accurate VE and valve event tables for this sucker.

Yes, the P1800 isn't the boxy traditional Volvo; that being said, the TurboBricks and V8 swap (hello Paul Newman) guys can make those suckers move, and when done properly, can actually look great in a "so wrong it's right" sort of way.

I'm in Austin for the next few days so have my travel computer, but here are a few pic's of Dad's gift naked and awaiting the booth:




Still undecided on color. I've used this silver car as inspiration; note debumpered, finer eggcrate grill inset, proper stance on Minilites, and how the subdued silver tones down the somewhat incongruous lines:



Although I'm also partial to this blue, perhaps with less hue:




Interior leather will be black dash, darkened silver binnacle, and a variation on the attached pic, depending upon exterior color; excuse the crappy photoshopping.

[robertisaar]

actually, that description makes perfect sense. i've been curious as to what exactly the monte carlo sounded like externally for a while now and finally got a microphone that sounds accurate at all of the ranges needed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tb0QY0XgH5U

as per the description, small or peaky speakers aren't recommended. simply the factory exhaust(cat and resonator included) with the factory muffler removed and a glasspack in place of it(with the only induction mods being the intake resonator being bypassed and the lower portion of the airbox being slightly modified). at idle, it does have hints of something "bigger" while at the same time you know it isn't quite there. the factory muffler drowned out nearly everything, while chambered mufflers seem to have an issue with drone, so this was the best compromise i could make at the time.

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sure you're thinking of the 60V6? i would describe the 3800s as sounding like farm equipment, but not a 60V6, or at least none that i've had.

Hi Robert,

Sorry, offense intended. By agricultural I should have said anodyne. The cars I've heard (granted, stock rental Impalas etc.) have a mixture of American V8 burble minus the sub bass rumble, with a hint of higher-pitch "spin" under load (think Makita); it's not unpleasant, just not what I am intending for this project. Curiously, it's both too refined and unrefined. Yup, I know that makes no sense.

The cars I've heard on the inter webs, modified, sound much more to my liking. Some valvetrain work adds the "chop" I'm looking for (mechanical noise, not necessarily lope), while headers are adding some needed anger to that "Makita" sound.

Here's my wordy thread describing the sound I'm hoping to achieve:

http://60degreev6.com/forum/showthread.php/51237-60V6-Exhaust-Under-Load-Sound-Files-and-Videos

If I came across disparaging these motors, again you have my apologies. Compact/lightweight, cheap, sufficient power for intended usage, reliable and durable, and a helpful community; I'm pleased.

[robertisaar]

A slight idle chop would be appreciated due to the 60V6's somewhat agricultural standard exhaust note

sure you're thinking of the 60V6? i would describe the 3800s as sounding like farm equipment, but not a 60V6, or at least none that i've had.

[SappySE107]

Ok so I had to look up volvo 1800s.



Volvo makes me think



Ok, so...yeah id say that's not even in the ballpark of what I had in mind. Doesn't change what id recommend but now i wanna see pics of the one you are working with. The crossover is for sound, so its all up to you. Im only an expert because I know what other people have done as well as our own stuff. If you can do some custom equal length headers, then its going to be even more so (ask superdave on here). About 32" primaries ideally if you are ambitious.

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Great, will send contact info via PM. Honestly though, no biggie if not a phone guy; we can do this via forum then email. It's just more time-consuming to get type out than over phone, but no hassle on my end if you like reading novels.

-Good, drinking beer; we all deserve breaks.
-BMW... I'm an old Formula Renault guy, and once had the opportunity to hear the M12 F1 engine at full chat. According to an old Arrows engineer I'm familiar with, they actually did use "seasoned" M10 4 cylinder blocks (like 318 BMW production blocks)... hearing that sucker roar around Goodwood in a Brabham BT-55 was pretty fricking amazing. You think you see a lot of BMW's... I live in San Francisco. And yes, I have an E90 wagon for daily dog transport/Costco. ... Head hanging in shame...

I thought I'd mentioned it, the car's a Volvo 1800S; replacing my fun car with something classic, hence RWD. I'd think w/ a 60 degree banked-V6 and proper headers I wouldn't need a crossover exhaust, but you're the expert.

Will send info now, and if you'd prefer I speak to Jon because of application, I'll happily do so. As to your customer using the Little Thumper, I'd happily talk to him as well.

And, if it's truly beneficial to spend some time in Fla, and Jon's good with it, I'd happily book the appointment. This car's a labor of love, from Dad, but I'm also a picky jerk since it's replacing my 996... I want things done properly, and that means going with the experts. You guys are it.

Have a good weekend, talk soon.

Jeff