Wtb tce drtc!

[ericjon262]

got my DRTC back today. the chain fits into the links all the way around, and everything seems right.

[3400-95-Modified]

Some more info...

DR Group buy members,
The DR sets will be going out tomorrow but I wanted to go over some things.

I wanted to assure everyone that the sprockets are good to go. Even though I was told by different gear cutters that the sprockets were good, the chain fit still concerned me. The way the chain climbed up on the teeth in Jon's (3400-modified) video was nagging me. It wasn't until it was explained to me the effects of the pitch diameter, chain pitch and that new chains vary from the manufacturer that I really felt confident that everything is as it should be. To ease anyone's mind who may have any concerns, I will do my best to explain how variations in the pitch diameter and chain pitch have on the setup and the amount of chain wear/stretch as it was explained to me.

First off, I did not realize how much new chains could vary but seeing is believing. I made a video ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E20DCrvkgtg ) showing four of the twenty chains that I had here. Don't make fun of my shaky hands... it's one of the side effects of the carbon monoxide poisoning. Of the twenty chains, only two would wrap around a new stock Cloyes sprocket without popping off when you release it. The rest pop off with some of them taking a fair amount of force to hold them in place. As you can see in the video, chain #1 wraps easily and does not walk up on the sprocket while the others do. For repeatability, I marked the sprockets and chains with yellow paint so the same segment was being used for each demonstration.

Although Otto, the gear cutter, had told me this before, I just didn't or couldn't grasp it. I even mentioned it in an earlier update to everyone in the group buy. Anyways, I called him again Friday and he explained, in more detail, about stretch/wear on the chain due to pitch diameter. Once he reexplained it, I calculated the numbers and can see why he said that the pitch diameter could only change the chain length by a small amount. It was one of those ah-ha moments. See numbers below. I had not thought of it that way but it does make sense when you look at the numbers and think of how the roller chain works. As the chain is wrapped around an oversize sprocket, it's being pulled into the bottom of the teeth which will stretch/wear the chain. This continues until the chain is big enough so the rollers ride freely to/on the bottom of the teeth. Once that happens, the only lengthening of the chain should be from normal wear, lack of oil, dirty oil or exceeding the chain's capacity. In all honesty, I have no idea what the capacity of the chain is or how much load is put on it by the drag of the cam but assume it should be fine as they use this chain in the iron head engines. If anything, the FWD cam should create less load due to the roller lifters. However, I do think that running an underdrive (solid aluminum) dampener is a very bad idea and will contribute to premature wear.

Amount pitch diameter is oversize: .002"
Deviation in circumference of pitch diameter: .0063"
Number of teeth on sprocket: 40
Deviation in tooth spacing: .0063 / 40 = .00016"
Number of links in chain: 64
Max amount chain would stretch/wear from PD being off: 64 * .00016 = .01005"

Note: The biggest sprocket out of the batch was .0045" oversize on the pitch which would have made the chain grow by .0226" in total length. Not something I would want but nothing that would kill an engine as it would only effect valve timing by about .55 degrees and have about .27" chain deflection.

These numbers also give an idea as to how close the chain manufacturers have to hold the chains for a good fit. A slight deviation to the minus side in chain pitch, the distance from center to center of rollers, and the chain will not wrap freely around the sprocket as seen in the video. Any variance to the plus side and the chain is sloppy. That's why they shoot for a little on the minus side when making the chains. Makes sense to me now.

Jon's worn chain was about .09" longer per side than a new chain. The would be .180" longer on the total length or .0028" per link. Using the above formula in reverse, the pitch diameter would have to be .035" over size for the sprocket to stretch the chain that much. The TC set would not even fit on the engine with the sprocket being that big. I doubt that the chain could even be wrapped around a sprocket that large. That only leaves the wear being from a lack of oil caused by the oil grooves not being in the back of the sprockets. Of course, on Jon's set, the metal being blue from heat and slight galling on the thrust plate surface were obvious signs that there wasn't enough oil getting out.

I should have caught the lack of grooves before sending the sets out and I do apologize for the inconvenience and problems it has caused.

Anyone who did not send their TC sets back in should really pull them out and add the oil grooves. I know it's inconvenient and a pain in the ass but it really needs to be done.

I hope that explains everything and puts everyone's mind at ease about using the DRs. If you have any questions, please feel free to ask.


Thanks for your patience,
Marc

Items he sent to me that he said he left out of the above update.

I reread that update after sending it and realized that I should have added in there that the new heat treat process took care of the parts that were oversize. I was trying to relay that I believe Otto was correct in repeatedly saying that it was a waste of time and money for the new heat treat. I just wanted to be sure as my reputation was on the line and a failure is very expensive for the users.

Something else that I forgot to add to that email is that there are variations in sections of the chains. That's one of the reasons I marked the chains for the demo. One section of the chain will fit fairly good but when the sprocket is moved to another area it gets harder to push onto the sprocket. Otto said that is common also and the chain will seat itself (wear/stretch in if you prefer to call it that).

There are so many things I feel bad about regarding the DR problem. Leaving out the oiling slots, taking so long to get them back to everyone and constantly questioning Otto's knowledge. His shop is a family business that opened the mid '50s and the only place he has ever worked besides his 4 years in the Army. He is extremely knowledgeable when it comes to gears, sprockets, splines etc. Plus, he's a car guy who understands the application.

[blckgagt]

No need for it to be a PM... The whole thing is public enough already.

Seems like i never get his emails. Either way I emailed him back letting him know my address. Hope he gets it.

So, judging by his PM, the sprockets were at fault and not the oiling issue?

[3400-95-Modified]

No need for it to be a PM... The whole thing is public enough already.

DR group buy members,
Yesterday afternoon I picked up the sprockets from black oxide and checked them out to make sure everything was good. I thought it may be best to check with everyone to make sure your shipping address has not changed since it has been so long and one person has already told me their address has changed. My plan is to get them packed this week, mark the boxes and do the shipping labels next weekend. It would be best if everyone could reply with their current address so I can verify that I have the right one. Otherwise, I will return them to the address that was on the package that was shipped to me as I cut and saved all of the labels from the shipments I received.

I apologize for how long this has taken. There were lots of reasons (health, time and money) but they aren't an excuse and I am truly sorry.

If anyone has any questions, please feel free to email them to me.


Thanks for your patience,
Marc
TCEMS

[young gun]

Just got an email from Mark. Check your inbox.

Anyone mind Forwarding me that in pm? I didn't receive the email again :/

[markuswithak]

Just got an email from Mark. Check your inbox.

[1988GTU]

Can't say whether I'll be 1st or not in using the DRTC set, but IF I get to the point where I am that guy first at it... Guess I'll find out first!

[blckgagt]

Well about time we get some type of positive news. From the sounds of the response, it seemed to be a money issue holding them back.

[3400-95-Modified]

Who's going to be the first to try it... Because I know I'm not. LOL Once, being as close to destruction as I was, was plenty...

[young gun]

Can only hope..

[ericjon262]

I got a reply from him earlier today, here's the important "news"

As for the status of the parts, I had a good sale last week and dropped the parts off for tumbling yesterday. They will be ready later this week. I should be able to start shipping them out around the end of next week.

at this point, I'm not gonna hold my breath, though.

[3400-95-Modified]

I'm a bit pissed at this one... Someone on the Beretta Facebook forum was able to contact TCE or BCC and get a response rather quickly on ordering and having something shipped to him... Why are we getting dead air?



Anyone else have more leverage? He outright will not respond to any emails I send him anymore probably because he's pissed at me for not agreeing with him on what he think's is the issue with these parts but that's completely unprofessional if you ask me.

[ericjon262]

I wish this wasn't the case but with the lack of any information regarding whats going on with this I feel like we are all just shit out of luck on this deal... Kinda pissed about the whole thing honestly but at the same time I'm not going to beat the shit out of someone who does have legitimate health issues.... I just wish it didn't go this way.

couldn't have said it better myself.

[3400-95-Modified]

I wish this wasn't the case but with the lack of any information regarding whats going on with this I feel like we are all just shit out of luck on this deal... Kinda pissed about the whole thing honestly but at the same time I'm not going to beat the shit out of someone who does have legitimate health issues.... I just wish it didn't go this way.

[ericjon262]

I haven't heard anything, I just emailed him, hopefully I get a response.