Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Six_Shooter's money pit and time vampire... v.240Z

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Guest
    Guest replied
    For now I might be putting an LX9 back together to get the Datsun back out.

    Most of my time over the last few months has been spent on another project that's been in the family for about 39 years. It was my uncle's first car and his first build. It is a 1923 Ford T-bucket. My uncle drove it for a few years in the early to mid '80's until he rolled it on one trip up north. Then while repairing it, the original fiberglass body and interior went up in a fire. So he bought a different style body, a Fiat Topolino, to put on the frame and once he got that body, he decided to just build a whole new car. The T-bucket sat for a bunch of years, honestly, I thought it had been sold off. Then after selling the Fiat, the T-bucket frame re-appeared, another body was found, and the work began. I joined in the build at a later date. My uncle passed away in 2002 and then the car sat for a few years again, before my Grandfather and I decided to finish it. It was supposed to be done for many years now, but this year it finally returned to the road. This is the short short version of the history.

    Unfortunately due to some technical issues, the engine has been swapped to a 283 (actually the original to the car), since the engine that was put in the frame by my Uncle in the mid '90's had some rather large issues. The 283 has issues of it's own though, most notably a timing chain that has 14 degrees of slack to it, so it doesn't run as well as I had hoped. So now I'm waiting to get access to another engine that a friend of mine has, but we're having a hard time getting it out of the storage place it's at currently. Hopefully within the next week it'll be in my possession.

    Anyway, since there's no 60 degree V6 in it, that's about as much as I'm going to write about it.

    Click image for larger version

Name:	Par-T201601.jpg
Views:	1
Size:	327.5 KB
ID:	378252

    Back to the 60 degree content...

    There's still some progress being made on the LZ9, but will post when there's significant updates in the other thread.

    Other than the Datsun I also have a 1985 GMC Jimmy that is/was a 60 degree V6 equipped vehicle. I plan to get it back together hopefully later this year or the beginning of next. So since the LZ9 build will take longer than I had hoped, due to many circumstances, I figure I'd throw an LX9 together use it in the Datsun for now, then move it over to the Jimmy, when the time comes.

    One thing that I wanted to do with the LX9, which really started years ago when I wanted to do this with an LA1 was to add oil squirters to all of the cylinders. The LX9 has them on cylinders #5 and #6, but not the rest. So I contacted my machine shop guy, the same one who made the trans alignment pin for me, as shown earlier in this thread about doing this. With the blown up LX9 from December, I dropped that block off for some exploratory surgery. We started with the same locations as would be seen in an LZx engine, which worked perfect for the #3 and #4 cylinders, but not so well for #1 and #2. The blocks are quite different in this area between the LX9 and LZx engine for that front oil squirter. We came up with an alternate location and it looks like it's going to work, so I will be dropping a good block off to him next week.

    You can see the middle oil squirter location, along with the front locations in this picture.
    Click image for larger version

Name:	LX9Exploratory01.jpg
Views:	1
Size:	251.7 KB
ID:	378251

    As you can see some exploratory machining was done. What would be the stock LZx location breaks through the side of the oil galley so it's a no go.
    Click image for larger version

Name:	FrontOilSquirter01.jpg
Views:	1
Size:	196.1 KB
ID:	378250

    A better shot directly above the area. You can see how my machinist tried to use the same offset that GM did from the center line, but had to move it over a little so that the oil galley stayed intact. This location will require some reshaping of the oil squirter tubes, but that's a minor detail here.
    Click image for larger version

Name:	FrontOilSquirter02.jpg
Views:	1
Size:	165.9 KB
ID:	378249


    I did drop a crank and piston/rod combo in last night and it looks to have the same clearance as the stock location from the rod and crank. I forgot to get pictures of this step.

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest
    Guest replied
    New direction engine wise for the 240Z, that saga is starting here: http://60degreev6.com/forum/showthre...-new-direction

    There will still be some updates to this thread before it's finished off though.

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest
    Guest replied
    Well, some changes are coming about, but will post those when I have more parts in hand, hopefully this weekend. These changes will mean that it will take longer to get the Datsun back on the road, but I'm ok with that, since I was recently given my Uncle's T-bucket. I knew I would be getting it eventually, but figured that would have been a far off time after my Grandfather had passed. My uncle passed away back on 2002 as he and I were working on the T-bucket, so it went to my Grandfather and my Grandfather and I have been slowly working on it for about the last 10 years or so. A few weeks ago he decided to give it to me now, I don't know exactly why it's now, but there have been some reasons said that for the most part make sense. Anyway, that means I'll still have a fun car to drive, since my plan was before it was even given to me to have it running and ready for the road by April or May. Now that it will be mine, means I don't need permission to drive it, and I can drive it when ever I want. I just need to find a place to put it. :/

    Anyway, I have some pictures of something I've wanted to do back when I had 3400s to play with. That thing is oil squirters on all 6 pistons in 660s that didn't have them. well since I have that junk LX9 block, I dropped it off to a machine shop friend to see just how feasible it is to add more oil squirters to the LX9, and would imagine the LA1 block to very similar, if not the same in this regard.

    Initial flattening of the areas to be machined for the additional squirters:
    Click image for larger version

Name:	OilSquirter03.jpg
Views:	1
Size:	283.0 KB
ID:	378232

    Front location looks a bit iffy here, so we decided that instead of placing the bolt hole where it "should be" to match the angle of the stock location to twist it a bit and get the bolt hole nearer the centerline of the oil galley, leaving the oil pick up hole offset like it is on the original squirter:
    Click image for larger version

Name:	OilSquirter04.jpg
Views:	1
Size:	407.0 KB
ID:	378231

    All holes drilled:
    Click image for larger version

Name:	OilSquirter10.jpg
Views:	1
Size:	298.8 KB
ID:	378230

    The center position looks good.
    Click image for larger version

Name:	OilSquirter08.jpg
Views:	1
Size:	244.0 KB
ID:	378234

    Squirter fitted:
    Click image for larger version

Name:	OilSquirter09.jpg
Views:	1
Size:	307.6 KB
ID:	378233

    But lets look a little closer at that front one:
    Click image for larger version

Name:	OilSquirter05.jpg
Views:	1
Size:	400.8 KB
ID:	378235

    Damn, the position broke through the side of the oil galley, so mimicking the stock layout (which is also very similar to the LZ9 position) isn't going to work. The LZ9 looks to have more material in this location to avoid this happening. The squiters are offset from the centerline of the oil galley about .300"

    The machinist will do a couple more drill tests with a couple other positions that we discussed to see what will be best and clear the crank throws, etc. Any of the positions that would be used for the front oil squirter will need the tubes tweaked to get them pointed at the pistons.

    Leave a comment:


  • 34blazer
    replied
    Huehuehue

    Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest
    Guest replied
    Originally posted by 34blazer View Post
    I'm looking forward to seeing your "idea.".

    Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk
    SHHHHHhhhhhhhh......

    I talked with my engine builder tonight about it when I picked up the rods and he said that even though there might be some fitment issues, it would be worth a look, and getting the parts in hand.

    Leave a comment:


  • 34blazer
    replied
    I'm looking forward to seeing your "idea.".

    Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest
    Guest replied
    Well, I got 6 new parts for my build tonight.

    Click image for larger version

Name:	EagleRods02.jpg
Views:	1
Size:	272.0 KB
ID:	378219

    Click image for larger version

Name:	EagleRods01.jpg
Views:	1
Size:	265.1 KB
ID:	378220

    Eagle H-beam, rated to handle up to 1500 HP, I don't think I'll be testing that limit. LOL

    These and a set from one other manufacturer were about the only off the shelf rods that are VERY close to being a direct replacement for stock rods. These are slightly longer. I'll have to look up the difference again. The wrist pin is also .005" smaller than the stock LX9 wrist pin, but since I'm getting custom pistons anyway, not a big deal, the pistons will just be ordered for the correct pin size.

    I also have an idea that might achieve some better flow for the top end. I need to get a couple parts and see just if it's worth the effort.

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest
    Guest replied
    Originally posted by Xnke View Post
    Post a photo if the ring gap faces. I bet they are shiny or burnished.

    You think I am trying to be a know-it-all, but honestly I just don't want to see you have to put a third engine in this thing.

    When ring ends butt, they trap the ring in the bore. Sometimes the top of the piston pops off, sometimes it rips the rod out the bottom. Either is consistent with your damage pattern.

    Sent from my KYOCERA-E6560 using Tapatalk
    I'm going to tell you ONE more time, this was not a ring gap problem. The ends of most my rings are still somewhat shiny from when I gapped them in the summer. There are a couple that are only a slightly darker shade, but also show no signs of touching. The file marks are still there. The ring gap was plenty for what I was doing, end of story.

    So what you think you know about my engine failure you do not, end of story.

    I know what happens when rings butt up against each other... it's not hard to figure out *facepalm*

    I followed the advice of my engine machinist, who like I said previously between him and his father have over a century worth of experience, and he's never led me wrong previously.

    These were stock pistons that were pushed far beyond what they were designed to do with many no load (due to lack of traction and steep gear) revs, and a couple instances of less than optimal operating conditions, a couple of times of detonation and spinning in reverse due to a bad ignition module when coming to a stop, which means it reversed direction very quickly, all of this is what I believe was the ultimate demise for this set of pistons. I probably should have looked at them more closely when I had them out in the summer. It doesn't really matter, because as I've already said, I'm not fucking around with a stock bottom end anymore, and will be built to handle the loads and RPM I plan to use this engine with.
    Last edited by Guest; 12-13-2015, 08:44 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Xnke
    replied
    Post a photo if the ring gap faces. I bet they are shiny or burnished.

    You think I am trying to be a know-it-all, but honestly I just don't want to see you have to put a third engine in this thing.

    When ring ends butt, they trap the ring in the bore. Sometimes the top of the piston pops off, sometimes it rips the rod out the bottom. Either is consistent with your damage pattern.

    Sent from my KYOCERA-E6560 using Tapatalk

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest
    Guest replied
    Originally posted by 34blazer View Post
    Wish I had the money for that crank/rods combo. Twins revving at 8k and I would crank the boost. lol

    Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk
    Yeah, it could be a lot of fun.

    I did at one time consider de-stroking a 3400, for a short stroke 3.1 (3100?) but decided that torque was more what I was after. LOL

    Leave a comment:


  • 34blazer
    replied
    Wish I had the money for that crank/rods combo. Twins revving at 8k and I would crank the boost. lol

    Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest
    Guest replied
    LOL, wouldn't work for me, and besides the LX9 crank is already a forged steel crank, which should be plenty strong enough for my goals. I also don't want to de-stroke my engine longer stroke = more torque, or at least easier to make torque.

    Originally posted by bigcheese View Post
    all my plugs were fine when I removed them, but I could actually hear the detonation happening even under part throttle. Had a bad tank of gas which ruined this motor.

    [ATTACH=CONFIG]8770[/ATTACH]

    ringland busted off. Everything else looked just fine.

    I just ordered a cam for my 3900. I am using bearing spacers. I don't expect to leave much on the table at all. The 3900 has a strong bottom end from factory, and even with the bearing spacers, you can put in a cam with over .600 lift at the valve without P to V contact. I might be wrong, but I don't think thats possible on stock pistons in an lx9. Granted you are going custom forged so you can have valve reliefs cut for that and WOT tech store will make pistons with that feature.

    stock lz9 heads flow about 232 at .500 lift according to a link here, and I am sure Ben flowed a set too. Ported flowed 250ish at .500 lift. I will have to go back and look but I don't think the lx9's are near that. Maybe 230ish cfm when ported?

    lz9 can do a 75mm tb. I think the lx9 is stuck at 65mm with a ported upper plenum.

    I got my 8k mile 3900 for $800. Not a steal but a decent deal. I see lkq in canada has them for like $500 for middle mileage like 40-50k miles. Saw it on ebay. I prob wouldn't bother with rebuilding with that mileage. the engine didn't come in sports cars so probably not abused

    yes swapping to the more displacement wont' be a direct bolt in, and it will take some ingenuity with the front drive belt, so its understandable not to want to go that route. you already got the lx9 in so sticking with it limits additional fabrication. My build requires fabbing with either engine I choose, so I figured might as well go 3900.
    Well, it's a good thing I'm not relying on only the plugs to see if there was any indication for detonation... since I have the engine apart I can look right at the pistons and heads and see no indication that there was any or much. Like I've already said I know I got a bit when I tried something with the tune a few weeks ago, but went right back to a known working bin. I stand by my thoughts that the skirt of the piston failed first, and then caused the piston to hit the head with the entire face of the piston head as indicated by the mark on the head, and then it snowballed from there. The damage and tell tale signs just point to this and not the ringland letting go first.

    My comment about leaving something on the table was not about overall power, but overall functionality of the engine. It's like buying a new car and then pulling out the automatic climate controls, because yo'd rather have manual controls, or buying a new high end home theater system and throwing the audiophile quality center channel away to use an old crusty '70's dual cone instead because that's what you're used to, or buying a new cell phone that has upteen billion megapixel camera, just to set it to the lowest or next lowest quality setting, it just doesn't make a whole lot of sense to not take advantage of the new features. As I said I just don't have the time, to get into that nor the money for a custom cam to take advantage of it. And every build that I've seen that uses a locked out cam has been less than what I'd consider stellar results. I know what I can do with the LX9 and it's more conventional cam, without removing potential features that could improve economy and/or power.

    You're also not getting it... I ALREADY HAVE MORE POWER THAN I CAN USE, so why do I care about using parts or an engine that can produce even more? I don't. My builds are never just about peak power, in fact I usually never go for peak power, I try to maximize the area under the curve to be more fun to drive, more efficient and overall just more enjoyable. If that means giving up a few peak HP, fine. I'm also done fucking around with stock bottom ends, I'm building this engine one more time, barring me doing anything really stupid that causes it to blow up, but the plan is to build it for some far off extreme goal of mine now, so that I don't have to do it again later.

    I already had to cut valve pockets in my pistons for the cam I'm running, so I will need those added to the new pistons, which will not be from WOT-tech anyway, I'll get them through my machine shop so that I know that they are exactly what I need and want. My machine shop has over a century worth of experience between the father and son that work there and have built everything from oddball stock tractor engines to large V8s that make 4 digit HP and live through extreme conditions, so I'll use their advice and suppliers.

    The throttle body size is irrelevant since I can just modify the upper intake if I need something larger, or make a whole new one. I'm not about what can bolt together, I'm about what I can make work and work the way I want it to, that should be obvious from this thread alone.

    I already said I can get an LZ9 for $225 complete if I wanted, and pretty much as many as I want, I've considered it a few times. There's more cons than pros for my application. The LZ9 is just not going to happen at this point, it's not what I need, it's not really what I want, and will just add to the cost of my build (in more ways than one) for absolutely ZERO benefit.

    I want the car to be back together for the spring and going with the LZ9 wouldn't allow that to happen due to all of the extra costs and time involved, which again will gain me nothing. I have enough planned changes and upgrades to the car for the winter as it is, some are engine related (since my hand is now forced lol) and some are to utilize the power, and some are cosmetic.

    Leave a comment:


  • 34blazer
    replied

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest
    Guest replied
    Originally posted by The_Raven View Post
    I don't see any signs that detonation had caused this, there's no pitting or silver flakes that would indicate that was a problem.
    all my plugs were fine when I removed them, but I could actually hear the detonation happening even under part throttle. Had a bad tank of gas which ruined this motor.

    Click image for larger version

Name:	bustedpiston3.JPG
Views:	1
Size:	78.7 KB
ID:	378191

    ringland busted off. Everything else looked just fine.

    I just ordered a cam for my 3900. I am using bearing spacers. I don't expect to leave much on the table at all. The 3900 has a strong bottom end from factory, and even with the bearing spacers, you can put in a cam with over .600 lift at the valve without P to V contact. I might be wrong, but I don't think thats possible on stock pistons in an lx9. Granted you are going custom forged so you can have valve reliefs cut for that and WOT tech store will make pistons with that feature.

    stock lz9 heads flow about 232 at .500 lift according to a link here, and I am sure Ben flowed a set too. Ported flowed 250ish at .500 lift. I will have to go back and look but I don't think the lx9's are near that. Maybe 230ish cfm when ported?

    lz9 can do a 75mm tb. I think the lx9 is stuck at 65mm with a ported upper plenum.

    I got my 8k mile 3900 for $800. Not a steal but a decent deal. I see lkq in canada has them for like $500 for middle mileage like 40-50k miles. Saw it on ebay. I prob wouldn't bother with rebuilding with that mileage. the engine didn't come in sports cars so probably not abused

    yes swapping to the more displacement wont' be a direct bolt in, and it will take some ingenuity with the front drive belt, so its understandable not to want to go that route. you already got the lx9 in so sticking with it limits additional fabrication. My build requires fabbing with either engine I choose, so I figured might as well go 3900.

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest
    Guest replied
    Exactly. This car will not get a cage, so running 9's really isn't an option, but it would be nice if the potential was there. lol I plan to make a bolt in roll bar so that I can at least run low 11's or 10's once I get that far, but because of ridiculous insurance rules around here I need to make it a bolt in to be able to remove it when I'm not at the track.

    That was another reason to not go LZ9, as you were having issues getting a cam made for it, and I just don't want to have to go through that to get a cam made for it.

    Leave a comment:

Working...
X