Exhaust Collector Discussion

[HOYS]

Coming from Jon who has designed, built, tested, and mass produced turbo kits that were regarded as some of the best out there for some cars...he is worth a listen.

He is not saying you shouldn't make collectors...but your time, effort, and money could be used for something else more productive. If this was high dollar racing where every single HP was worth the time to get it, you would have no problems. This is a forum about an engine that came in mini-vans, grocery getters, and that's about it.

Viper forums? You make those collectors all day.

[slw240sx]

omg, Sappy is not hostile...lol

And how can you try to be respectful and constructive when you are insisting that I do things quicker, cheaper and easier? If you were truly respectful you would understand my pursuits, not that it is required as I will continue on w/ life, but you need to draw a line buddy. It's not like you are trying to talk me out of a "stupid" modification.

In now way have i meant disrespect in my counter argument. debates are debates, you look and speak from your point of view , and i from mine. do i find your pursuit in the miniscule details a little over the top? yes i do, completely. How ever that is your decision , my side of the debate was more of an attempt to get you to not worry so much over those details because in my personal experience your not going to see worth wild gains in there, how ever you must figure that out for yourself as everyone as dedicated to a certain idea will. I would much rather see enthusiast getting their hands dirty and building and testing aka driving their setups then hunched over a computer for weeks looking at virtual results and measurements. how ever what i forgot in my argument was that some people do find that fascinating and enjoy that part of the build as much as i enjoy welding and cutting and talking shit to people. so i do have to respect your point of view and just agree to disagree on our methods of choice.

So here is the deal. I will continue to build these collectors and test them the best I can. At this point I don't care what you say about that. I am a leader, not a follower.

On that note, I decided on two collectors to build. Then flow test each one as best I can.

I am going to rig a spare MAP sensor to the entrance of 1 primary, cap the other and drive compressed air threw the other yet. A better flowing collector should show a greater reduction in pressure when the compressed air is shot through. That is the goal, and we'll see just how much of the Venturi Effect plays in.

go for it! the results will be interesting. how would you feel if i offered to send you one of our collectors to test? I think it would be a great comparison to look at for your test results



"in my years of experience people who are this way are more likely to abandon a project before its ever even road worthy. "

Actually, it is the other way around. You NEED math for such a build. Deck height, dynamic pressures, cam grinds, turbo ratios, compressor maps, push rod length, TDC, piston ring end gap, etc. And people who just toss parts on with out regard to specs/math will hit a problem spot when they go to drive it. These people are more likely to ditch a project.

IMO that amount of math is not needed. the engineers that designed the power plant did all that math for you. you really don't need to go that in depth. especially with a stock block turbo kit build.
if you were to change the stroke, the bore size, then you start getting into needing to really doing your calculations, but the majority of builds never go that far into things. If i were doing a build that required a custom motor, custom cams i would sit down with someone versed in these motors and go over things you listed, but i will never build a 60deg motor to that extent because i really am not in the market to build the cars just the parts. If milzy ever stopped producing the turbo stuff likely i would never make another 3400 kit again unless a customer requested it.


Such a disregard for math is completely asinine.

its not like i am completely blindly throwing parts at a car... i have been doing this for over 5 years, i do know what i am doing, or else i would have never made it this far. i started toying with turbo cars back in 02 in my garage with a couple of friends and grew from that. the other friend i started with is a math geek and he was into the numbers just like you are.

[slw240sx]

If my fab guy joined a competitors website/forum and told them he didn't care about doing the best he could...id fire him. Instantly.

well i guess its a good thing i do not work for you or anyone for that matter... again great addition to this thread here! bravo! your a wealth of information and experience when it comes to turbo setups...
This is the reason these threads go from productive to counterproductive. Its not just me and my opposite side in a discussion because we could keep the discussion moving and learn from each others point of views. its the banter from outside parties that have no need to input information or lack there of. Ben have you built a turbo car? one? have you built hundreds? im not talking building parts then selling them. i am talking from conception to completion? There is a lot learned from the experience of real world hands on building . We have plenty of that to go around...

We do our math here at my shop, just not to the extent of what you guys believe is utterly important. I am talking about VE calcs, comparing turbo maps, and looking over cam specs. all this is done in our shop, we do calculate the setups to a extent. having to do calculations on fuel pump flow and injector flow at different pressures and voltages because if we want to make a little 2L turbo motor go from 175 to 600hp you can guess, but you better have a good idea of what your looking at or else your going to be sending someones hard earned cash to its death when it comes dyno time. our current build that we have in the shop now is that very 2L aluminum blocked motor getting worked to 500-600hp. we have in the last few weeks crunched plenty of numbers to come up with the correct cams, the correct turbo, the correct fuel system, the internals and the correct electronics all of which will allow us to make this power safely.
Dont assume i am just some dumbass that half asses and rigs shit, because that i am not. you can look at my work and see that there is thought behind it and skills to execute it.

[TGP37]

in my years of experience people who are this way are more likely to abandon a project before its ever even road worthy.


Also if i may, for being a leading figure in this community you awfully hostile to people who are engaged in a friendly discussion. I know we are on different sides of the discussion, but if you are going to involve yourself at least take the hostility down a few notches and try to at least engage me into being open minded. I think you have the wrong idea of my intentions or demeanor. I know i am a total asshole and i am stubborn, but i am also very reasonable and do try to be respectful. dislike my posts with me dumbing down and what not i get that, but be respectful and try to be constructive. That is what makes me not like your posts. they are more often then not attempts at cheap zings rather then a good counter point. Your partner joined in the convo and i actually expected hostility from him as well, but he was welcoming and brought up a good point.

omg, Sappy is not hostile...lol

And how can you try to be respectful and constructive when you are insisting that I do things quicker, cheaper and easier? If you were truly respectful you would understand my pursuits, not that it is required as I will continue on w/ life, but you need to draw a line buddy. It's not like you are trying to talk me out of a "stupid" modification.

So here is the deal. I will continue to build these collectors and test them the best I can. At this point I don't care what you say about that. I am a leader, not a follower.

On that note, I decided on two collectors to build. Then flow test each one as best I can.

I am going to rig a spare MAP sensor to the entrance of 1 primary, cap the other and drive compressed air threw the other yet. A better flowing collector should show a greater reduction in pressure when the compressed air is shot through. That is the goal, and we'll see just how much of the Venturi Effect plays in.



"in my years of experience people who are this way are more likely to abandon a project before its ever even road worthy. "

Actually, it is the other way around. You NEED math for such a build. Deck height, dynamic pressures, cam grinds, turbo ratios, compressor maps, push rod length, TDC, piston ring end gap, etc. And people who just toss parts on with out regard to specs/math will hit a problem spot when they go to drive it. These people are more likely to ditch a project.

Such a disregard for math is completely asinine.

[bszopi]

I didn't know this was WOT-Tech.com...

What does that have to do with what Ben is saying?

[HOYS]

I didn't know this was WOT-Tech.com...

[SappySE107]

in my years of experience people who are this way are more likely to abandon a project before its ever even road worthy.


Also if i may, for being a leading figure in this community you awfully hostile to people who are engaged in a friendly discussion. I know we are on different sides of the discussion, but if you are going to involve yourself at least take the hostility down a few notches and try to at least engage me into being open minded. I think you have the wrong idea of my intentions or demeanor. I know i am a total asshole and i am stubborn, but i am also very reasonable and do try to be respectful. dislike my posts with me dumbing down and what not i get that, but be respectful and try to be constructive. That is what makes me not like your posts. they are more often then not attempts at cheap zings rather then a good counter point. Your partner joined in the convo and i actually expected hostility from him as well, but he was welcoming and brought up a good point.

If my fab guy joined a competitors website/forum and told them he didn't care about doing the best he could...id fire him. Instantly.

[slw240sx]

Doing the former makes the latter better.

in my years of experience people who are this way are more likely to abandon a project before its ever even road worthy.


Also if i may, for being a leading figure in this community you awfully hostile to people who are engaged in a friendly discussion. I know we are on different sides of the discussion, but if you are going to involve yourself at least take the hostility down a few notches and try to at least engage me into being open minded. I think you have the wrong idea of my intentions or demeanor. I know i am a total asshole and i am stubborn, but i am also very reasonable and do try to be respectful. dislike my posts with me dumbing down and what not i get that, but be respectful and try to be constructive. That is what makes me not like your posts. they are more often then not attempts at cheap zings rather then a good counter point. Your partner joined in the convo and i actually expected hostility from him as well, but he was welcoming and brought up a good point.

[slw240sx]

Is NASCAR or other professional drag teams over complicating their creations? Imagine all the hours, test, products just to squeeze that extra 1 HP. There is a science to this, we both know this. And I am only 2 years experienced so far with this stuff. So please stop telling me to "dumb" it down, I won't. I am going to build these collectors regardless.

I don't see anything wrong dedicating time to design a great pair of turbo headers. Every little bit counts, which is why mandrel bends are popular. Who knows, maybe I stumble upon something great.

I wish you were more productive towards the discussion instead of having this "Silence all who questions the normal methods" attitude.

thats a silly comparison. that is professional top teir racing. you and i are not top tier multimillion dollar research dept's. your time dedicated into a great pair of turbo headers go completely in vain when the execution is not going to compliment the time spent working the numbers. every little bit helps. i think you guys give way to much credit to that little stuff. end results are end results building this all in perfection on paper is more then likely not going to be the same in reality when you have to work around the engine bay and all the constraints of the car. then you have the actual kit that will change variables. every joint you make thats slightly misaligned, every flex section you include, the slightly off radius cuts that wont quite match up, every little one of those inconsistencies changes that math.

i argue against this sort of over complication because i see a different way to build a car then the engineers that want theoretical correctness. i look at building a car in simple terms. what is the purpose for the car? drag racing, street machine, road race, or drift car. Then i look at what type of power band we want to shoot for. great low torque, nice flat curve, or peaky power. different types of racing you have to adjust to them. then we set a power goal 250hp, 500hp 800hp like that. that is what is truly important to a customer that is building a car. If i started spouting off theories and math formulas 99% of them would look at me and just tell me they want to go fast or slide around in third gear. They do not care how its done. at the end of the day if you build kit A and i build Kit B we are both going to come out very similar. i know where my time and attention went. That is into the parts the build quality and aesthetics. knowing already that my setup will be capable of a power goal i set. do i need to stress over calculations to figure out if my goal is what ill hit? no. I know from hands on experience what is needed to attain the goal. I do not like math enough to enjoy what engineers do. i would never be a engineer. i would always end up the fabricator building from the drawings of the engineer.

there is nothing wrong with dedicating your time to a great pair of headers. Id just dont like to see people spending countless hours trying to reinvent the wheel. there are build formulas in every community to follow and most are built upon years of trial and error from people like you, and people like myself working to achieve the same end result. You keep doing what you are doing, and ill keep doing what i am doing. honestly your the type of person i rely on to give a me a base for real world trial and error when building a product, so you role is important even if i give you a hard time for over complicating it. In new development i may come back and read through your ideas on theory and may try to apply them. i have gathered so much information from so many different places that you never know a discussion you had 5 years ago may hold some key info to something you work on tomorrow.

[SappySE107]

you are over complicating this. im guessing you enjoy the math behind these things more then the driving part of the project?

Doing the former makes the latter better.

[TGP37]

once again, i wont even argue with you guys. you are over complicating this. im guessing you enjoy the math behind these things more then the driving part of the project?

a turbo wants no restriction after the turbine. it needs no back pressure it needs to be as open and free flowing as possible.

Is NASCAR or other professional drag teams over complicating their creations? Imagine all the hours, test, products just to squeeze that extra 1 HP. There is a science to this, we both know this. And I am only 2 years experienced so far with this stuff. So please stop telling me to "dumb" it down, I won't. I am going to build these collectors regardless.

I don't see anything wrong dedicating time to design a great pair of turbo headers. Every little bit counts, which is why mandrel bends are popular. Who knows, maybe I stumble upon something great.

I wish you were more productive towards the discussion instead of having this "Silence all who questions the normal methods" attitude.

[slw240sx]

Precisely, I am interested in making a real life working exhaust system built to very specific dimensions to achieve a state of greater function/efficiency.

And here is a question I just thought of.....

Would it be ideal to maintain a steady velocity all the way to the tips? In such a case, the pipes would need a very gradual taper equal to the volume lost from temp transfer (which can be test measured). Or would it be better to have curves that are a little larger in diameter (2" straight with 2.25" mandrel) so the gases slow down and take the turn easier? Like the intake does.

Now, I know having perfectly even taper is a little far fetched. But knowing certain data we could choose what diameter is needed down the way. I'm sure there might be more to plan instead of just running a diameter pipe from the really hot turbo out to the cool muffler inlet.

It would be interesting to have an exhaust that maintained a very steady velocity under wot.

once again, i wont even argue with you guys. you are over complicating this. im guessing you enjoy the math behind these things more then the driving part of the project?

a turbo wants no restriction after the turbine. it needs no back pressure it needs to be as open and free flowing as possible.

[TGP37]

You can make something work, but you aren't making it ideal.



Good reason to use those sizes, if you are more concerned with making something work without any regard to how good you could have made it. Pretty sure we are trying to figure out the best way to go about it, not the best way to make it happen easily.

Precisely, I am interested in making a real life working exhaust system built to very specific dimensions to achieve a state of greater function/efficiency.

And here is a question I just thought of.....

Would it be ideal to maintain a steady velocity all the way to the tips? In such a case, the pipes would need a very gradual taper equal to the volume lost from temp transfer (which can be test measured). Or would it be better to have curves that are a little larger in diameter (2" straight with 2.25" mandrel) so the gases slow down and take the turn easier? Like the intake does.

Now, I know having perfectly even taper is a little far fetched. But knowing certain data we could choose what diameter is needed down the way. I'm sure there might be more to plan instead of just running a diameter pipe from the really hot turbo out to the cool muffler inlet.

It would be interesting to have an exhaust that maintained a very steady velocity under wot.

[SappySE107]

ideal primary size honestly will just match port size.

You can make something work, but you aren't making it ideal.

1.5" runners and 2" crossover pipes and make as much power as you want. we use 1-5/8ths and 2.5" crossover pipes, the reason is that with our pressed collectors that is the outlet size of the collector.

Good reason to use those sizes, if you are more concerned with making something work without any regard to how good you could have made it. Pretty sure we are trying to figure out the best way to go about it, not the best way to make it happen easily.

[slw240sx]

Thank you, this is exactly why I post here. I have a lot to learn yet, but I am on my way.

I am taking your advise and removing the taper. I thought it was for velocity but didn't realize the difference in turbo apps. Speaking of the collector, I still yet have to find the idea diameter for the primaries. Also need to figure the cross-sectional ratio from 3 smaller pipes to one larger pipe. Should I maintain equal cross section area?

Example,

Using 16 gauge as the example (roughly 0.0625" or 1/16" thick)
Primaries, 1.75" OD / 1.7375" ID
Surface Area of Circle = 2.37"²
Three Primaries Total = 7.11"²

Secondary Pipe Diameter = 3" (which is A= 7.11"²)

But if I go 1.5" Primaries then the secondary should be (1.767"² * 3 = 5.3"²) diameter of 2.6" ID , 2.725" OD.

But it seems excessive to have two 3" pipes merging into the Turbo. But that is how the math states it.

Any advise there?



Here is the big question, Why do people say the header won't work the same on a turbo?

I know it seems like a silly question but if the scavenging effect is created at the collector, then in theory exhaust under pressure would still create a lesser pressure reversion wave which would aid the excavation of exhaust gases under greater pressures and heat. Same mechanics just at a higher pressure with greater heat. But what of the turbines effect on all of that?

ideal primary size honestly will just match port size. we use 1-5/8ths primary runners, they fit the port size and inside the flanges we had designed. smaller will work on lower boost setups, i am not against 1.5" primary runners. We used 1.5" on our turbo mustang kits for the most part and those guys where consistently pushing 550whp. of course a ford 302 has silly small exhaust ports.
honestly you could build your kit using 1.5" runners and 2" crossover pipes and make as much power as you want. we use 1-5/8ths and 2.5" crossover pipes, the reason is that with our pressed collectors that is the outlet size of the collector. There is no need for 3" pipe going into the turbo. The inlet of the turbo is about 2.5" in diameter just rectangled. you would have a hard time getting 3" to fit a t3 flange. t4 flanges we use 3" into the turbo, but we still would use a 2.5" crossover merging to a 3" section to fit the turbo.

I rarely to the math on this stuff anymore. to be honest back in the day we did concern ourselves with the math behind tube size and all that, but over the years we have just found that you lose about an hour or two of labor arguing the engineering behind the parts instead of getting busy and just building something that in the real world normally works. Ill be honest i am a high school drop out that failed bad in math, i prefer to just build and test out what i think in my head make sense. most of the time i am right. after building hundreds of setups you kind of just get the feel for what will be enough and what will be over kill. luckily i have had some very good engineer students work for me over the years as well as a few good math people that also were HS dropouts that tend to be like you who want to do the math. i but heads with them and do real world testing while they punch numbers, we usually come out in compromise of whats perfect in theory and what works in the real world.

here are some links to my work on our photobucket and flickr pages this is all work over the last few years, most is undocumented unfortunately.
http://s253.photobucket.com/albums/hh75/ForcedFabllc/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/forcedfab/sets/