262's 85 Fiero SE LX9 F23 swap thread lots of pics

[ericjon262]

Not much going on ATM, I drew up this adapter to adapt the 09 impala gas pedal to the Fiero, I'll have it 3D printed to test fit, and then make adjustments from there. once it's "done" I'll have it cut out of metal.



I did a bit more practice running beads last night, I think I'm starting to get the hang of it, I think one of my biggest problems with producing nice beads earlier, was that the torch was too far from the material, resulting in the torch melting the filler, not the puddle, I tightened the gap, and was more careful about filler addition, and the result was the top bead in this picture:



I did several like it, and think that I'm getting to the point where I can observe the problems or poor technique better, and make corrections on the fly. I think all this stainless practice will make a huge difference in all of my weld quality, not just stainless. it seems some of the other materials are more forgiving they're appearance doesn't change as much with poor technique, whereas stainless changes alot!

[ericjon262]

Those are the ones! Topic reply works This was an off year for me, as far as getting anything done that I wanted to do at the beginning of the year. Ill going to need your help with designing a valve cover spacer. I can do all the measurements, but I can't make it a cad file. .xfd? XDF is tuning, and its similar to that I think...I gotta get my head back into this stuff.

like Bszopi said, DWG, DWF, DXF. most of my stuff end up being STP or STEP files, I draw them all using OnShape, nice thing is that I can draw it using the computing power of the cloud, and not bog down my crumby laptop, the downside is that I can't take it anywhere that doesn't have internet...

I can draw one up, shouldn't be too hard, the biggest issue will be measurements, because almost nothing is square, but I have a few methods that work. for the exhaust flange I made a grid matrix and used the deck surface as a reference line, it worked well, the 3d print of my flange proved the port dimensions, but unfortunately, I somehow messed up the bolt hole positions relative to the ports. right now, the ports are almost an exact match to the heads, I'm planning on upsizing them by 5% so that the flange will have no overlap of the port. I'll post the file for the drawing after it's been verified for anyone to use.

[bszopi]

Dwg, dwf, dxf... Most likely dxf.

[SappySE107]

Those are the ones! Topic reply works This was an off year for me, as far as getting anything done that I wanted to do at the beginning of the year. Ill going to need your help with designing a valve cover spacer. I can do all the measurements, but I can't make it a cad file. .xfd? XDF is tuning, and its similar to that I think...I gotta get my head back into this stuff.

[ericjon262]

I missed alot or all of this...but damn! I gotta practice welding again and work on some headers. I never did make the flange/adapter to snap the header fabrication pieces to the head. Those bends look familiar. I think they are the same ones Forced_Firebird (I think thats his name on here as well?) uses for the BMW turbo manifolds. Too much math for me. Expanding an 1/8" between the furthest exhaust ports would be neat to watch on a timelapse. Also, the topic reply should be default IMO. Im feeling lucky, lets see what this new software has under the hood

the bends are "weld els" they're pretty popular for turbo manifolds. I believe the math, after welding this stuff up, the difference in expansion between the head and the flange isn't as huge thankfully. it would make it almost impossible to work with.

I was hoping to have this heap back on the road by the end of the year, but my work schedule is going to prevent that.

in other news. the other log is welded up, not I just need flanges so I can continue.

[SappySE107]

I missed alot or all of this...but damn! I gotta practice welding again and work on some headers. I never did make the flange/adapter to snap the header fabrication pieces to the head. Those bends look familiar. I think they are the same ones Forced_Firebird (I think thats his name on here as well?) uses for the BMW turbo manifolds. Too much math for me. Expanding an 1/8" between the furthest exhaust ports would be neat to watch on a timelapse. Also, the topic reply should be default IMO. Im feeling lucky, lets see what this new software has under the hood

[ericjon262]

Practice helps, alot!



old on the left, new on the right. still a bit hot, but way better!



One log and runner are assembled, unfortunately, I can't really make any more progress until I get the new flanges made. tomorrow, when I get off work I plan to triple check all of my measurements and find someone to cut them ASAP. my fabrication plan is to tack weld the 45's to the flange, and then set the log on top and trim both until I have a proper fit, then weld everything up.

[ericjon262]

a little less stickout, a litttle more prep, a little more speed, and a little less current netted this:



much better, but I still need more practice.

[ericjon262]

first ever attempts at welding stainless steel. I can tell already I need lots of practice. I think my travel speed is too slow, and I probably should have spent more time prepping the surfaces, I'm planning on picking up some stainless wire wheels tomorrow, and I'll use them to brush the weld areas, and then I'll wipe them, as well as the filler, with acetone prior to welding. I'm also going to use solarflux on the back of the weld to prevent pickling the backsides.

[ericjon262]

well, unfortunately, I don't have much to report, I got underway for a bit and wasn't able to get much progress done... here's what I have for now.

I'm also converting the car to DBW and am going to use an LS4 throttle body.




I re plumbed the oil drain into the pan, this time cutting in behind the starter.







it fits nice and tight, and should make install and removal of the turbo easier.

I drew up my own header flanges. everything I've put my hands on was way off. here's the new flange, it should be almost exact to the port.



now onto the next step, the pipework to the turbo, the plan is for a pair of short log manifolds, to a single turbo.the log is tapered from 1-1/2 schedule 10 pipe, to 2" schedule 10 over about 12" of length.

https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/thermal-expansion-pipes-d_283.html

according to this, over about 12"(approximate length of the log) of pipe, and a temperature difference of around 1300F from installed state to what is probably well over max operating temperature yields an expansion of about 0.2" similar math for the head, assuming 142F rise (due to coolant) results in an expansion of 0.022", a difference in expansion of .178"

using the difference in temperature for the head, and the expansion of the stainless gives us an expansion of.019 for the flange, a difference of .003 between the head and flange, if I were a betting man, I would say that the flange is probably slightly hotter than the head, due to the lower thermal conductivity of stainless compared to aluminum, and the lack of cooling medium.

knowing this, across the entire head, I have a difference of about .18" between the log and the flange. that I need to make up. but the force on the runners will be applied bidirectionally, with about .126" of expansion between the ports further apart, and about .054 between the ports close together.

All of this is assuming steady state temperature, I imagine transient dT's would be lower.

0.0195" head

0.0167" flange
0.01169" wide
0.00501" narrow

0.156" pipe
0.098" wide
0.042" narrow


0.071" flange hot
0.0497" wide
0.0213" narrow

difference warm
0.0864 wide
0.0369 narrow

divergence warm
3.62 degrees wide
1.57 degrees narrow

difference hot
0.0483" wide
0.0217" narrow

divergence hot
2.049 degrees wide
0.92 degrees narrow


on the front bank, most of the expansion can be taken up by the bend from the first port. as it should be relatively free to expand towards front passenger side of the engine compartment, on the rear bank, that expansion has to be taken between the ports, as both ports will discharge at almost right angles to the pipe. short of building a 3-1 header style manifold, I don't think there's much I can do there, slotting the boltholes at the ends of the flange would allow the pipe to move the flange to a small degree, but it will also be forced counter to that by it's lesser expansion, and would have to also fight the force applied by the tension of the bolts also resisting flange movement. I'm going to keep looking at them from an engineering standpoint, but I think what I have so far should perform adequately.

[bszopi]

On the topic reply issue, it looks like if you go to edit your settings, and go-to the notifications settings, you should be able to make it work. Check the Subscribe to Topics, and then change way you receive notifications (on, on daily, or on weekly).

[bszopi]

Good looking build. And I will look into the topic reply issue.

[niceguy]

I agree, I just happened to browse the forum for the first time in awhile.....I wish I had time to try my hand at welding, I'd lke to do something cool for the LZ9 3.9L. Getting head gaskets replaced and anything else needed while torn down and I have a spare 3.9VVT that I want to mess with this winter.
Enjoying your pics and updates, wish you were closer to Memphis, TN so you could do my engine work lol

[Will'sFiero]

Maybe the lack of traffic at this site is partially driven by the fact that it never sends topic reply notifications.

Looking good! Kill it!

[ericjon262]

drunk me ordered the throttle controller the other night, I'd expect it here sometime next week.

in other news, if I want AC again, I'll have to re work my engine mounts



I checked piston to valve clearance,



it was a little tight for my liking, about .060", I would prefer at least .1", so I decided to get a bit sloppy...











while my work was sloppy, I put the effort into making it pretty good, I ended up with 6 almost identical reliefs which should provide plenty of clearance.



I torqued the heads down in 7 passes, starting at 20 ft lbs, and then going up in 10 lb increments up to 80 ft lbs. I then checked torque at 80 ft lbs on each stud 3 times before going to bed. the next morning, I did 2 more passes at 80 ft lbs. no stud movement.

the gen IV 60v6 uses a timing chain tensioner instead of a damper, it bolts onto the earlier engines, so I decided to install one, along with a cryo treated timing set from WOT-Tech. the wire pin is to keep the tension shoe off of the chain during install, it was removed after this picture.





then I installed the timing cover and commenced measuring pushrods. all of the exhaust pushrods measured in between 6.06" and 6.08" at zero lash, and the intakes all measured between 5.63" and 5.64" at zero lash, unfortunately, I can't find a lifter preload spec anywhere... I have seen a few sources that say LS V8's are .040-.050, and others that say .060-.080", and 3800's like .030(I assume the difference is block and head material) but nothing for a 60v6, which has smaller lifters, shorter pushrods, canted valves.and mixed materials for the heads/block.