cam shaft swap help

[60dgrzbelow0]

Rootie...

Please check the mating of the broken segnents of the rocker arm... if they do not match up perfectly...then get a decent telescoping magnet that will not come apart easily and get stuck down inside the engine and fish around down inside the head adjacent the rocker post that broke, just to see if the magnet picks up any stray pieces of metal that might be laying in wait to cause trouble after your re-assemble things.

I have to say... That judging from the fact that the way you tell your story is so marvellously free of the ravages of deception and ego... that some of the best "Advisors" you could ever ask for have responded to help you and they seem to have taken you under their collective wings... I suspect...almost as soon as they were able "un-drop" their jaws after looking at your video. If this is true... then you are a very fortunate man and those of us who do not work on these kinds of engines are nonetheless reading carefully as things develop... and we are all pulling for you to make things right...

[SappySE107]

If the chain was 99 and the gears are 00, then that is a big problem. With the pushrods out, you should be able to press on the lifter hydraulics a little and get them to move. If not, that is probably ok anyway due to the checkball position. You could tear them apart to be sure but I doubt you broke an internal lifter spring unless the pushrods were in the wrong order.

[Rootie524]

no i changed both the sprockets. i didnt just change one to the new one with less teeth and leave the other one factory. i changed both of them. i got the timing chain from a guy that was selling it on another forum..and he didnt specify what year. i thought they were all the same. but now that i think about it he had a 1999 malibu i believe..and i have a 2002..so my chain and sprockets should be the thinner kind which may be why things got screwed up. The cam is out and looks find, the springs look fine, we checked the pushrod on the valve with the broken rocker and it looked fine but im going to double and triple check though..im guessing its possible that accounted for the timing problem. having the wrong sprockets on with less teeth then what it's used to. but we did notice that when the cam and lifters were still in, some of the lifters could easily be pushed down on with our fingers..but some were stiff. so did some lifter springs break from the extra force? or is that based on the position of the cam lobes?

ill take some pictures of the timing chain sprockets if it helps or what ever else may help. but im getting the new rocker today and im going to move very very slowly. so since the cam was possibly in right, then what was the problem? the timing chain?

[IsaacHayes]

STOP

Before anything else happens.

See CNCguy's post.


Next, what year is your engine, what year timing set did you get? (94-99 had larger chain and different sprockets, 2000+ went to thinner stuff) Verify this is correct for both.. if it matches then:

I would put back on the OEM sprockets, with the new chain. I had a Cloyes set and at 180,000 miles my stock sprockets looked better quality and the new chain was tighter with the old OEM sprockets than with the new sprockets! So I just changed the chain and dampener(guide). If you have not put a new guide/dampener in, do so now.

The cloyes is not the best as far as durability. For max durability, going with OEM (dealership) sprockets, chain and dampener from 94-99 3100/3400 is the best. Especially with a cam/stiffer springs.

After you have verified the push rods are not bent, you might want to pull the lifters, or at least the one where the rocker broke and inspect it. Make sure it's not damaged or seized up or anything.

Next after you have placed the timing set back on, torqued the cam sprocket to 103ft/lbs and installed the rockers/etc. Before putting the cover back on, turn the engine by hand to verify that it's not binding on anything and looks/sounds ok. Then once you have the timing cover back on, do a compression check on all the cylinders to verify that no valves are bent and leaking. (you could do this before you put the cover on if you have an air compressor and do a leak down test instead). If that passes you've lucked out and should be good to go.

[CNCguy]

Rootie
The cam gear is twice the size of the crank gear so the engine turns two full revolutions for each turn of the camshaft. If it looked like the timing was off 180 degrees, it may have been okay since turning the crank one turn would have moved the cam 180 degrees. That would put the cam mark at the bottom and the crank mark back to the top. If you haven't already removed the timing set, turn the engine one revolution and recheck your marks.

Pushrods and valves usually bend before the rocker arm breaks. Perhaps your rocker arm was already fatigued and simply broke from the additional load of the new springs.

[ForcedFirebird]

You have to keep the matching sprockets/gears. You only changed one gear, knowing they didn't match up?

[Rootie524]

well. try not to cringe too hard when i explain this. and keep in mind this is the first time im trying stuff like this and it takes mistakes to learn and it takes doing it to learn as well. i didnt expect to get it right the first time.

anyway...i took all my pulleys and stuff off and got to the cam sprocket. i took it off and what do i find..my cam is spun 180..how the f*ck did that happen? i put it in the right way..was the bolt not tight enough or something? after seeing that i thought..ok something has to be messed up so i took the rest of the engine off. the pushrods are fine believe it or not, the valve springs look good, the visible intake valves dont look bent. the only casualty i had was ONE broken rocker. it broke at the bearing. that would explain all the ticks. because the rod was still there..so everything the rod pushed up, im guessing that was causing the noises. plus the fact that i had my cam spun 180. i have no idea how it even ran like that.

so..ill be off to the junk yard tomorrow to get a rocker arm quick and hopefully get this back together right. Before i thought i had it in TDC when i put it back together. because i had the dot on the crankshaft sprocket line up with the line on the chain guide. im assuming if that's lined up that cylinder 1 is in TDC..correct me if im wrong.

so how the hell do i do this right. im going to put the cam shaft back in so the pin is pointing to the right..which will make the cam sprocket hole point down in a line..and ill have the crank sprocket marks point up..and then that should be good right? i swore thats what i did but somewhere along the line it got messed up. i have a new coyles timing chain. there are less teeth in the sprockets then with the stock ones..is it possible that threw off timing (idk why it would though)

just please someone help me. idk where im going wrong. but i got lucky im only out one rocker arm at the moment.

[ForcedFirebird]

Take your valve covers back off and rotate the engine by hand. Make sure all the rockers are moving, and check for bent pushrods. The issue with it idling up sounds like a vacuum leak.

EDIT: "a tick or two" on a cam gear is a significant amount, and WILL bend pushrods depending on if you advanced or retarded the cam timing one said tooth.

[pocket-rocket]

but i dont get it because i put the new cam in the same way the old one was..so..im lost

It would be easy to get the timing chain off a tooth or two if you had multiple people helping. I watch over anyone that helps me like a hawk unless I know for 100% fact they know what they are doing. My one friend knows he has to anticipate my next step and grab tools before I do if he wants to have a chance at doing anything in my garage when he's over- just because I know I know what I'm doing when I put something together. I'm not saying he doesn't know what he's doing, it's just the way I work when I'm doing something out there. About the only thing I have people help me with is extra helping hands for pulling/installing engines (which most of the time I do alone), or showing a friends son how to do something to pass on knowledge.

[Rootie524]

well im pretty sure the rockers are down perfectly. ill take the valve covers off to double check. and the cam bolt is torqued down just fine. even if it wren't it would only shift alittle left and right if your facing the engine..i dont believe that would cause valves to smack pistons..it just may bend my rods..which arent bent..so its not that..and im pretty sure everything was lined up but i cant be 100%. i had a few people helping me out so i cant account for all of them. it may be off a tick or two. like i said, it cant be off by much.

so how should i go about fixing this? someone said put it in TDC and make sure the valves for that cyliner all all the way closed or something like that..and then it should be good? but i dont get it because i put the new cam in the same way the old one was..so..im lost

[Superdave]

I'd check your valve springs and make sure the rockers are tight first.


you did torque the cam bolt down to 103 ft-lbs right?

And you are 100% sure you had the dots on the gears lined up?

[Rootie524]

pushrods were put in the correct spots and from what i saw from the front valve cover through the oil cap, they are straight and not bent like the picture someone posted on here. after seeing that picture i triple checked they were in the correct spots.

and i dont really get the WOT comment WrathOfSocrus made. i meant that there is a slight lope like a stall kinda feel to the new cam but on wot-tech for the strip cam, it is described that this is normal. that's all i meant..i wasn't blaming ben or wot-tech for any problems or anything. and if you mean you thought i revved my car to WOT while it was clicking like that i did not. i gave it alittle gas to keep it from stalling and it only went up to 2k and then it revved up to 3k on it's own. It's veryyyy loud right now so it probably sounded like more.

and as for ignition timing. i check that too. i have the correct wire on the distributor going to the correct cylinder. ex: 1-1, 2-2, 3-3, etc..im assuming that's correct and that it doesnt matter what ignition wire you use, just that it is in the correct spot and goes to a spark plug.

and since it has to be mechanical timing..im guessing im not too far off. because if it was really off..it wouldnt idle at all..so the fact that it idles leads me to believe that im close..i hope someone can back me up. and the clicks that you hea i assume are the valves knocking on the top of the pistons. It doesn't sound like a really damaging knock so i think my valves aren't bent or anything..but time will tell.

all vacuum lines are in the right spots..same with electricals..and believe me i check this engine up and down, left and right several times to make sure. i checked everything i could think of. and i thought about all the possible problems and talked them through with a buddy and canceled them all out and we were left with timing. Timing because it idles and accelerates it's own and goes down to a very low idle on it's own because valves are open at wrong times in conjunction with the pistons and in the same retrospect, valves are hitting pistons so the cam is off time with the crank. so..everything points to timing IMHO.

[SappySE107]

Pushrods or cam timing. You couldn't screw up ignition enough to sound like that.

[WrathOfSocrus]

How come EVERY time i hear of people with engine issues they ALWAYS have remarks about how it acts in WOT??? I wouldn't do that to a junkyard car let alone my own beast i just spent hours wrenching on, but that's my opinion.

That thing sounded horrible. Some sort of timing, be it ignition or valvetrain, is not correct. The engine fires 1-2-3-4-5-6 and the coil packs light off 1-2-3 so it should fire 1&4, 2&5, and 3&6. From the video it looks like you have the coils in the stock location for a 3X00. As you FACE the engine bay, the terminals should be connected from left to right - 5,2,3,6,4,1. Obviously facing it a different way it would be reversed.

If you triple check and the firing order is correct then the camshaft may not be properly aligned with the crank. I can't think of anything else that would case such noise but still allow it to run.

[asylummotorsports]

You didn't mess up the pushrods did you? CHECK THAT FIRST!

And vaccuum leaks will drive you crazy if you missed something.

I would suggest you don't run it anymore until you find out an obvious problem.

Good luck with it and post everything you find.