Some parts too look at (Valvetrain)

[tejohnson]

Ok. A little vindication for myself now that I know I am not crazy. The picture below is of a new box 3.1 valves. Note, the bigger seals are labelled as the "Exhaust" valves, so I did originally install them correctly.



Close up of the 3.1 valve seal box. "Felpro SS 72685"



So I used the supra seals for the Exhaust, and the smaller (6-93734) 3.1 Intake seals for the Intake. All seals have a firm grip on the valve guides.



A close up of the installed seals. Again, notice the casting number of these '99 heads. The Intake valve guide is ~.001 - .002 larger than the Exhaust guides. So my troubles are only verified with these heads with this casting number.



Perhaps this is a bit overkill. The "93734" 3.1 Intake seals would likely work on all the guides, however, I could not obtain only the Intake seals. Hopefully this helps someone with a similar situation.

[tejohnson]

As it turns out, and after trying the new seals and doing some thinking, I believe I placed the intake and exhaust seals on the opposite guides. (Edit: But I didn't, see my followup post below with pictures) The smaller seals probably should have been placed on the exhaust guides. When attempting to use the new seals I proposed, they are an awesome fit on the exhaust guides, but they do not want to seat fully on the intake guides. Which this seems bizarre since it looked to my calliper gauge as if they were the same size. Due to the positioning of the guides, it is tough to get a precise measurement. So, the prior seals may work fine at least on an N/A setup, but I am sceptical about a boosted setup.

Since I'm selling this, and how I tend to over engineer, I bought some more 3.1 seals so I can use the smaller seals for the intake guides, since there was no issues with them before. Exhaust guides will have the Toyota seals specified above...

Will update with pictures when the new 3.1 seals arrive.

[tejohnson]

I would assume your intake seals would have popped off before your exhaust ones though.

No, the intake seals are smaller and fit much tighter on the guides. The comment about boost was a big guess on my part. I assume at this point that there would be an impact. The intake seals simply didn't budge. I am not the only person that has experienced this. If you recall, see: http://60degreev6.com/forum/showthread.php?t=38539

If I recall, there were comments that the springs movement lifted the seals up. Did they? If that is the case, why did they all not lift up? I know the springs had no movement on my heads...

[3400-95-Modified]

I would assume your intake seals would have popped off before your exhaust ones though..

[tejohnson]

The other thing to keep in mind with my setup: 15psi of boost

I'm sure this did not help in keeping the seals on the guides...

[tejohnson]

Hrm, I wondered if he figured you had 2000+ heads.

The only thing that really concerns me is if they are used for the 2.2l, the 2.2l has a smaller valve stem (less than 7mm I think). So the seal has a tight grip on the valve, and not so tight grip on the guide.

With the 2000+ having a larger guide, it is less of an issue apparently. Make sense?

[Canyonero]

Yep, I got two boxes. If I recall correctly, ForcedFirebird posted that Felpro #.

[tejohnson]

Oh, too funny. I just noticed the box of seals you have. Those are entirely different seals Two different part numbers, 4 of each. So, did you buy 2 boxes or something?

The 70819 seal was my problematic one. It easily stretches out with just the caliper, so I can only give a min/max range. The measurement range is .480 - .540. That (almost brass colored) band around the seal does not seem to do the trick very well. The one that held on good is .475 - .520. It has the same type of band (only silver), however, the actual seal size is definitely smaller.

[tejohnson]

I measured seals I have, they sure seem the same to me. But I don't usually know what the hell I'm talking about:

Intake (felpro 70816)
.480in guide
.292in stem

Exhaust (felpro 70819)
.480in guide
.292in stem

Those look the same size. Odd, do all the seals in that package look the same? See the pic below (click on it for high resolution). The seals in the package I have are entirely different visually:

[Canyonero]

I measured seals I have, they sure seem the same to me. But I don't usually know what the hell I'm talking about:

Intake (felpro 70816)
.480in guide
.292in stem

Exhaust (felpro 70819)
.480in guide
.292in stem

[tejohnson]

Looks like I have the 10218170 casting, so I will be needing different seals. I already bought a set of the 2.2L seals, if anyone wants them...

For the 2.2 seals, do you have the dimensions? I think they were in a hard casing too, but I was under the impression they were for a larger valve guide. (for the 2000+ heads)

[Canyonero]

Looks like I have the 10218170 casting, so I will be needing different seals. I already bought a set of the 2.2L seals, if anyone wants them...

[tejohnson]

I think Todd must have got a set of later heads by accident maybe? My car had the early size guides and I used the 3.1 seals and they are all still on the guides. As for the reason for the two different part numbers on the 3.1 seals, I'm not sure. They are exactly the same size and have the same size hole in them. The ones I got from GM are two colors though (black rubber and orange rubber) and the only reason I can think of is the rubber is a slightly different compound in each to make the rubber compliant and/or heat resistant to seal best in a given heat range, since the exhaust valves are hotter than the intakes. iirc the orange ones where the exhaust seals and most high temp o-rings and such are orange or brown. Just a thought.

Aaron, I have 99 heads. And no, the package of 3.1 seals (two different colors) are really two different seals with different sizes. Pull out a calliper gauge and measure the bottom inside diameter up near the "top or 8mm" opening.

Although I gave the casting info previously, there is also a "98" cast in small print to the far right side of the head, on the same side the part number "10218170" is. These are the 99 heads that I pulled off my 1999 grand am to have ported and polished by Street Arsenal back in the day. I verified this by earlier pics when I first removed the heads, and some casting marks in those photos.

you can go to Napa and buy just the intake seals, that's how i've purchased the 2.2L Cavalier exhaust seals several times. I actually just did that a few weeks ago for a set of 00+ 3400 heads.

Unfortunately I tried (as mentioned above). You can not get those Fel-Pro seals individually any more for the 99 heads. (SS93734, or just 93734, or simply 3.1 intake valve seals by themselves) It appears the part number was even discontinued. Napa is the first place I tried. Also tried Autozone & Advance Auto Parts. Checked online too. If someone else has more luck than me, cool.

So, with all that said, do you all feel there is a problem with the "replacement" seals I found? (that were designed to work with a .514 guide and 8mm valve stem)

[Superdave]

This seal has the same amount of depth and contact as the old. I went this route simply due to efficiency. I could have bought two packages of the SS72685 and only used the intake seals (93734) which means ~18.00 wasted, unless you could sell the others. The part number 93734 appears to be discontinued, and you will not likely find them individually.


Any thoughts?

you can go to Napa and buy just the intake seals, that's how i've purchased the 2.2L Cavalier exhaust seals several times. I actually just did that a few weeks ago for a set of 00+ 3400 heads.

[AaronGTR]

I didn't word that right. I'm asking specifically about the valve stem and seal combination. I know the ≤99 and ≥00 3100 heads are different. But ≤99 and ≥00 3400 heads will all work with the 2.2 seals, right? There was no change on the 3400...

Nope. They changed the outside diameter of the valve guides on the 3400 heads in mid 2000. That is the issue with the seals. The earlier 3400 heads had smaller OD guides and have to use the 3.1L valve seals. The newer 3400 heads have larger OD guides and have to use the 2.2L valve seals. The diameter of the valve stem never changed. Thats the same reason the LS1 spring seats will fit on pre-2000 heads but on post 2000 heads the center hole has to be ground out slightly or they won't fit over the valve guide.



I think Todd must have got a set of later heads by accident maybe? My car had the early size guides and I used the 3.1 seals and they are all still on the guides. As for the reason for the two different part numbers on the 3.1 seals, I'm not sure. They are exactly the same size and have the same size hole in them. The ones I got from GM are two colors though (black rubber and orange rubber) and the only reason I can think of is the rubber is a slightly different compound in each to make the rubber compliant and/or heat resistant to seal best in a given heat range, since the exhaust valves are hotter than the intakes. iirc the orange ones where the exhaust seals and most high temp o-rings and such are orange or brown. Just a thought.